Will ship classes be properly represented

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bcoop1701

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You think so? I guess it depends on what later BBs you want to class as BB and what you want to class as SHBB. If Montana, H-44, and Super Yamato (AC-150 class) would all be classed as SHBBs, then what 1944 BBs are there to consider, historically?
HMS Vanguard? She was roughly equivalent to Iowa in size so not a SHBB. The Lion class design might be a better choice for Axe's hypothetical discussion though since Vanguard was a compromise design so she could be completed in a shorter time frame.
 
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mursolini

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I think we should agree to disagree on the various merits of BBs - we had another thread turn into a BB vs CV thread in the last few days, and I'm getting a little bored of them. I've done a fair bit of research on the different BBs, and at least to me it looks like it's worth modding them in. I won't think any less of you if you play with vanilla BBs, it's just something for me (or Cpack, if I use his mod instead) :). The beauty of HoI is that it can handle a range of abstraction levels, and the beauty of modding is we can put in any extra detail we'd like that isn't in vanilla (at not point have I suggested that not having these distinctions in vanilla would break the game or anything silly like that).
I agree :) What I don`t want is devs focusing on needless "representing" of BBs in accurate details. Mods are mods ;)
Also worth noting that in-game, last time we saw it BBs take a year and a half to build even if you're missing all the oil, not 4-6 years (although I'm definitely modding in more historically accurate build times - so your argument would hold true if you were using what I'm hoping to put together).
I think you misunderstood. What I meant, was that in case of BB-centric navies it would take 4-6 years to alter balance due to having to first build sufficient naval factories, then wait till created factory imbalance would translate into built ships. Far longer than research of new aircraft, setting up a production line from already existing land factories, and voila, if your opponent invest land factories somewhere else, you got a notable edge in 1-2 years.

And yeah, Devs bending reality to push BBs out in a year, as opposed to 3, is precisely what I really hate to see in game.
 
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Axe99

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Aye, sounds good - I try and make it clear, but don't mention it every time I mention naval stuff, but wanting to mod it in isn't saying that the base game is bad, or that the devs should be doing what I'm modding, just I wouldn't mind a bit more of a naval focus (but, this will mean more naval units to deal with, which might not fit as well in the base game). My efforts could also fail entirely as well (for example, it will be easy as pie to mod corvettes in, but if there are 100 corvettes and 100 frigates floating around in the Atlantic, will it be possible to balance sub detection so that the U-boats aren't slaughtered?), although in the case of a bit more detail to the starting OOB in terms of extra BB classifications, I'm hoping that I won't stuff that up. The only design decision the devs have made that I think may not work out in the long run is whole logistics thing, but I could be off there as well.

You think so? I guess it depends on what later BBs you want to class as BB and what you want to class as SHBB. If Montana, H-44, and Super Yamato (AC-150 class) would all be classed as SHBBs, then what 1944 BBs are there to consider, historically?

HMS Vanguard? She was roughly equivalent to Iowa in size so not a SHBB. The Lion class design might be a better choice for Axe's hypothetical discussion though since Vanguard was a compromise design so she could be completed in a shorter time frame.

That question kind of highlights the point I'm trying to make - the tech tree from a BB perspective doesn't really do a great job of fitting the tech development of BBs (although I think it does a good enough job for the vanilla game :)).

As brighter people than me around here have said, Montana was more of a 1944 BB than SHBB (although using the Montana name for the SHBB slot is a perfectly reasonable decision for HoI4, given the tech tree they have), in that it was the natural evolution of a BB in a period of competitive development (not unlike the substantial tonnage increases between 1906 and 1922, which started with Dreadnought at around 18,000 tons and finished with Hood at over 40,000, IIRC (could be off here, going from memory) and I'd probably use that design as a comparison model, and then weigh that up against the South Dakotas (the 1930s designs - the ones that were actually built). Vanguard, Iowa and Lions (as they were laid down) I'd put as all 1940s designs (again, for the sake of this discussion - where they are in the vanilla tech tree may be different, I can't recall off the top of my head, and the first in all three classes were laid down between 1939 and 1941).

So, while in-game the Montana is the 1944 US SHBB, it's probably our 'best guess' of what a 1944 BB design would have looked like IRL had the major naval powers thought they were still needed to continue building stronger BBs. Does that sound reasonable? And from that, I'd argue that the gap between Montana and South Dakota is a good deal smaller than the gap between the Colorado and Minais Gerais classes, say.

Indeed, there wasn't much movement at all between 1922 and 1936 (due to a combination of the naval treaties and the technology maturing), such that the 'big' designs of the early 1920s (South Dakota, N3, KII) that were scuppered by the Washington Treaty wouldn't have been that far off a Montana in capability in any event, and the G3 "Battlecruisers" would have been quite similar in capability to the Iowas, nearly 20 years their senior.

Just my 2 cents mind - either of you would be better placed to either make the argument or tear it to shreds than me, and by all means have at it :).
 

dave_r_gilbert

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I think there is a distinction to be made between the ships that exist at the start of the game, and those that can be built after game start.

Those that exist at the start of the game can (presumably) be given individual stats to reflect their relative abilities.
So, in the BB category, the Minas Gerais can be a bit of damp squib, and the Nelrods at the opposite end.
In the CL category the Royal Navy alone had the C class, D class, E class, Leanders, and Amphions.
And in the DD category the R/S, V/Ws, A-H classes, and Shakespeare/Scott.
Speed, gunpower, armour, and all the rest can be varied on a ship by ship basis, because they are all part of the starting line up.
Hopefully they can each be allocated a different 2D model as well, for game immersion purposes.
For this reason I see the 1922 category as a catch-all shorthand for "before 1936".
None of these ships or ship classes should be buildable - they are already afloat, but the navies of the world will build new ships, not repeat old ones.

Those that can be built after the start of the game can't be held in the same straight jacket as the existing ships, in order to give the players choice.

So I think that the different ship categories before 1936 can be built into the starting navies, and don't need to be in the tech tree.
I would like to see different 2D models for the different ships in the starting navies, e.g QEs, R class, and Nelrod battleships, and Minekaze and Fubuki destroyers.
I would like the Tech tree to start at '36, and don't see the need for ships prior to that date, as nobody is going to build them.

Like Axe99 I can wait until we see the game, and try it out, before deciding exactly where the changes should go in order to make the naval side more immersive.
However, i'm pretty sure CVLs need to be in the game.
The distinction between CAs and CLs, and indeed cruisers in general, weren't handled well in HOI3.
CAs weren't small battleships, and CLs weren't large destroyers.
I would like to see escort ships (Corvettes, Frigates, Destroyer escorts, etc.) if they can be modded in and handled/balanced by the AI.
And CVEs if they can be handled as well.

What I would like to see for buildable ships is the ability to make decisions about the initial ship in a class, using the new (and excellent) variant system.
So when, for example, the 1940 DD is unlocked the player can decide (by allocating points?) to improve surface guns, TT, speed, ASW, and/or AA.
And for each of those points the build time and cost goes up. Or allocate none of them, and get a cheaper but less capable vessel.
 
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jcd000

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On the topic of SHBB vs plain BB, 1944 model, maybe convergence into one 1944 BB model should be considered?
Afaiu the 1944 BB designs were converging to Yamato+ tonnage, correct? (ok, some German H designs were larger, but those sound a bit unrealistic either way)
 

Denkt

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Iowa and H39 (Hindenburg) is used as class names for the 1944 battleship while H44 is a class name for the 1944 super heavy battleship.
 
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Cpack

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H44 only were what if studdies, never meant to be realisticly built (yeah, even the nazis didn't want to build everything what is big:p).
It was just for calculation what would be necessary to field 50cm+ guns

But anyway, the H44 would be massive expensive:rolleyes:
H-44yamato_zpsd6876460.jpg
 
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SchwarzKatze

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@Cpack
Is Iwami Fujimoto's contender to Kongo's replacement? The silhouette appears so, but the name and date escape me.
 

Denkt

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Montana is used as USA 1944 super heavy battleship while Iowa is its 1944 battleship.

1944 tech mean basically ships with auto loading guns such as the Tre Kronor class. Proximity fuse, advanced radar and fire control system and maybe even stuff like bofors M48.
 

Cpack

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@Cpack
Is Iwami Fujimoto's contender to Kongo's replacement? The silhouette appears so, but the name and date escape me.

That's a Little bit "what if's".

There're some Fujimoto and Hiraga design studies around the 20's and 30's. So since there were no real designs for the 40's, I decided to take them for later designs.
 

JerkyJerry

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Sorry to go a bit off topic............
In the tech tree that Cpack posted (awesome by the way) why are there so many wires/cables(?) on the ships? What do they do? Why are they there? Are they used any longer?
Were they clotheslines? ;)
Thanks

Thank you SchwarzKatze! I thought it might be radio antennae but I had no idea about ship stresses.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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Sorry to go a bit off topic............
In the tech tree that Cpack posted (awesome by the way) why are there so many wires/cables(?) on the ships? What do they do? Why are they there? Are they used any longer?
Were they clotheslines? ;)
Thanks

The big ones between the masts are probably mainly used as radio antennae, have you seen an AM antenna? The same thing but mega sized, you need it to call home in the middle of the ocean.

Phone wires are embedded in the ones that go through turrets; the more redundancy, the better.

They also serve to help tie things in place. If the bridge and masts were only fixed below, then by lever principle, forces near the top would cause a lot of stress.

They can also hoist signal flags when radio silence is required.

They're also used to hang clothes while docked.
 
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dave_r_gilbert

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Agree about Cpack's tech tree. Fantastic stuff.

One small change I would make.
Instead of Light Mogami have the Katori class.
The Mogami class, 9,500tons, started with 5 turrets, each with 3 6" guns, and then swapped them out for turrets with 2 8" guns.
Same ship, but by changing from 15 6" guns to 10 8" guns they went from CL to CA.

Better to have the Katori class, built in 38-40, 6,000 tons, with 5.5" guns.
The Agano class (next in the CL timeline) was a logical extension of the Katori, and both used ideas pioneered on the Yubari.
 
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Cpack

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Agree about Cpack's tech tree. Fantastic stuff.

One small change I would make.
Instead of Light Mogami have the Katori class.
The Mogami class, 9,500tons, started with 5 turrets, each with 3 6" guns, and then swapped them out for turrets with 2 8" guns.
Same ship, but by changing from 15 6" guns to 10 8" guns they went from CL to CA.

Better to have the Katori class, built in 38-40, 6,000 tons, with 5.5" guns.
The Agano class (next in the CL timeline) was a logical extension of the Katori, and both used ideas pioneered on the Yubari.

I had the Katori or sometimes also the Yubari as light cruisers long in Hoi3, but they were only training cruisers, so never intended to see frontline.
 
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bcoop1701

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Montana is used as USA 1944 super heavy battleship while Iowa is its 1944 battleship.
What's the 1940 BB then? South Dakota? The Iowa's were ordered in 1939 and 1940. Of course, funding for the Montana's was approved in 1941 as well so I guess I'll just have to put up with it as a quirk of the game's tech tree.

By the way @Cpack, your tech tree looks great.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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Agree about Cpack's tech tree. Fantastic stuff.

One small change I would make.
Instead of Light Mogami have the Katori class.
The Mogami class, 9,500tons, started with 5 turrets, each with 3 6" guns, and then swapped them out for turrets with 2 8" guns.
Same ship, but by changing from 15 6" guns to 10 8" guns they went from CL to CA.

Better to have the Katori class, built in 38-40, 6,000 tons, with 5.5" guns.
The Agano class (next in the CL timeline) was a logical extension of the Katori, and both used ideas pioneered on the Yubari.
Katori had about as much armaments as the 3,500-ton Tenryū class, and was so slow that it could only escort convoys. It's a training ship designed with showing all kind of things in action in one place, without regard for a particular application, to the extent that half (IIRC) of its boilers ran on coal, because there were still coal-burning ships in the IJN then.

And I think that's the problem: there's almost nothing in common for "light cruisers" besides that the largest guns they mounted are than 6.1" (155 mm) in caliber. Take Japan for example, there were big destroyers (Tenryū, 5,500 ton classes, Yūbari, Agano), armored gunners (Mogami), and submarine coordination center (Ōyodo). There're also the unbuilt AA platforms numbered 815~819.
 
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Praetonia

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Given that HoI has never adequately represented the importance of battleship speed, there's no need for any differentiation than "Upgraded" and "Non-upgraded", with new build in the 30s and 40s simply rolled into "Upgraded". On this level of abstraction, that's all that really matters. There is no more substantial difference between a Littorio, a Bismarck, a King George V, and an Iowa, and than tank or infantry formations of the different nations.

Maybe a junk category for things like the French WWI legacy battleships, Spanish battleships, and Swedish coastal battleships, but then not including them in the game at all or modelling them as heavy cruisers would be equally acceptable.
 

jcd000

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Montana is used as USA 1944 super heavy battleship while Iowa is its 1944 battleship.

1944 tech mean basically ships with auto loading guns such as the Tre Kronor class. Proximity fuse, advanced radar and fire control system and maybe even stuff like bofors M48.
Well i was thinking about modding the tech tree. Then i remembered this thread is not mod-related. Disregard my comment.
 

Cpack

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  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
Here's my USA-Tech tree to discuss:
USA1.JPG
USA2.JPG
 
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