Will Sevilla steer to Genoa? Isn't unhistorical?

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WeissRaben

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You know the changes to Portugal are good when there's only one vocal Portuguese guy speaking out against them.
It's more that I don't understand the point - Seville, even if not an endnode, is going to be an absolute chokepoint if Portugal, Castile and Aragon (and variation thereof) are strong enough. On the other hand, if someone is strong enough to force trade into the Mediterranean, it's logical that it will happen. It changes very little, except for giving now a chance to actually represent an Italian power gaining something from the Americas (as it WOULD happen).
 
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yerm

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It's more that I don't understand the point - Seville, even if not an endnode, is going to be an absolute chokepoint if Portugal, Castile and Aragon (and variation thereof) are strong enough. On the other hand, if someone is strong enough to force trade into the Mediterranean, it's logical that it will happen. It changes very little, except for giving now a chance to actually represent an Italian power gaining something from the Americas (as it WOULD happen).

It encourages the (historical) fighting over Italy by Spain and France, and (also historically) causes a strong Iberian trade presence to cut into the merchant republic profits.
 
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WeissRaben

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It encourages the (historical) fighting over Italy by Spain and France, and (also historically) causes a strong Iberian trade presence to cut into the merchant republic profits.
That too! It's just not going to have an enormous effect on Seville, so I don't see where "Portugal is nerfed" comes from.
 

BFTeixeira

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Actually I don't, I could right you an entire essay about why the Great Lakes should be usable "sea zones" where ships can travel and fight sighting both examples of the lakes being used for exploration purposes via naval means as well as important battles fought on the lakes but I don't

Also, what do you think is more likely, they are intentionally nerfing Spain and Portugal but only mentioned Spain in there brief post that they didn't have to do or that they forgot that Portugal exists and nerfed it accidentally. Either way I don't get why your freaking out so much about it, its not like its some game breaking nerf to them which will make them somehow unplayable, they still have pretty much every advantage to set up a trade empire, rake in the cash and never be seriously threatened
I'm not talking about playing with Portugal. I'm talking about the AI Portugal that already has issues to maintain the empire.
 
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BFTeixeira

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@BFTeixeira how about you wait and play the new patch before you get to upset by this change? Also instead of making lots of consecutive post try making one larger one.
As posted in another thread, i won't play this patch. But that's besides the point. A feature or change isn't more or less debatable whether i'm going to play with it or not. About the consecutive posts, i'm just answering to the comments on my posts. Nothing more.
 
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BFTeixeira

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Portugal could use with one or two provinces. Splitting Alentejo would be good.
Splitting Alentejo would make sense as even to this day it's divided in Alto Alentejo e Baixo Alentejo (with the most important cities being Évora and Beja, respectively), and also revisiting the terrain type in Beira and Bragança is a must. Those are Hills at best. But if i'm not mistaken in-game they're considered Farmlands or Grasslands (please correct me if i'm mistaken). I don't know how a mountainous region with heights up to 2,000 meters can be considered Farmlands or Grasslands.
 
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Stolen Rutters

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It encourages the (historical) fighting over Italy by Spain and France, and (also historically) causes a strong Iberian trade presence to cut into the merchant republic profits.
+1 I believe this will improve the gameplay in the map.

Historically, Northern Italy and the Netherlands region were the most advanced and developed lands in Europe. Manufacturing, banking, & trade were all developed and dense, demand for the luxury goods from Asia and the Americas were higher here than elsewhere. The way the game is setup everyone west of Italy can ignore it, when in reality NO power in the region did.

The "end node" is a game feature that is so powerful that a main goal is to control this place if you are anywhere near it. That describes northern Italy in the time period much better than Bordeaux, and even Seville as powerful as it was wasn't enough for Spain to ignore Italy. I like the move.
 
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hwoosh

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Nice! Just like how the Ottomans have a real incentive to take the Balkans because Constantinople trade flows into Ragusa. :)

It doesn't really end up working that way ... If you take the entirety of Constantinople node, but leave the Balkans untouched, you control 90–99% of Constantinople anyway.

Genoa should be a different matter, though, with so many strong naval countries pulling trade from Sevilla.
 

blackchoas

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As posted in another thread, i won't play this patch. But that's besides the point. A feature or change isn't more or less debatable whether i'm going to play with it or not. About the consecutive posts, i'm just answering to the comments on my posts. Nothing more.
its really not hard to omnibus your replies though, so instead of 3 posts in a row you just have 1 post
 

yerm

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its really not hard to omnibus your replies though, so instead of 3 posts in a row you just have 1 post

It's hard when you're RAGING.

In any case, clearly the solution to Portugal's problems is an event that fires in the mid 1500s that puts them under Castile/Spain in PU, and an event that frees them if Spain/Castile loses to the Dutch revolts. This should, in theory, put Portugal quite safely and soundly under the greater Spanish protection and likely leave them there since AI Castile never touches the low countries, resulting in general happiness for most and some abject forum-flurrying rage from BFTeixeira.

Or, meanwhile, we can realize that AI Portugal's inability to hold onto its empire has absolutely nothing to do with Seville as a trade node. It is due to Portugal's inferior position to Castile yet ready willingness to both join and go total war against them when called by an ally for any reason, by their inability to maintain a large fleet due to the all or nothing naval warfare mechanics combined with a lack of range limitation, causing them to take fights even in the Black or Baltic sea against opponents of no strategic importance against whom they are ALWAYS fighting a total war, and their deep longing and desire for Morocco.

No, let's ignore the actual reason for an empire built around scattered holdings and a need for peace and isolation on the side of a peninsula to frequently lose when their AI routinely suicides fleets, overcommits, or goes the distance against the bigger neighbor, and let's instead try to argue that the trade node being weakened would change the situation in ANY meaningful way.
 
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arctus

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It's hard when you're RAGING.

In any case, clearly the solution to Portugal's problems is an event that fires in the mid 1500s that puts them under Castile/Spain in PU, and an event that frees them if Spain/Castile loses to the Dutch revolts. This should, in theory, put Portugal quite safely and soundly under the greater Spanish protection and likely leave them there since AI Castile never touches the low countries, resulting in general happiness for most and some abject forum-flurrying rage from BFTeixeira.

Or, meanwhile, we can realize that AI Portugal's inability to hold onto its empire has absolutely nothing to do with Seville as a trade node. It is due to Portugal's inferior position to Castile yet ready willingness to both join and go total war against them when called by an ally for any reason, by their inability to maintain a large fleet due to the all or nothing naval warfare mechanics combined with a lack of range limitation, causing them to take fights even in the Black or Baltic sea against opponents of no strategic importance against whom they are ALWAYS fighting a total war, and their deep longing and desire for Morocco.

No, let's ignore the actual reason for an empire built around scattered holdings and a need for peace and isolation on the side of a peninsula to frequently lose when their AI routinely suicides fleets, overcommits, or goes the distance against the bigger neighbor, and let's instead try to argue that the trade node being weakened would change the situation in ANY meaningful way.

there is a good point, in most of my games portugal and spain go for marocco and become backward in adm points, but i guess these 2 bt provinces in the inland are really worth it to spend 100 adm for coring each
 

L_naut

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there is a good point, in most of my games portugal and spain go for marocco and become backward in adm points, but i guess these 2 bt provinces in the inland are really worth it to spend 100 adm for coring each

Don't they get missions that give adm which kinda negates the cost? I don't remember the exact number, anyway I think those missions are dumb, it makes the Iberians pretty predictable.
 

arctus

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Don't they get missions that give adm which kinda negates the cost? I don't remember the exact number, anyway I think those missions are dumb, it makes the Iberians pretty predictable.
yes they get missions for some coastal provinces but they often go far deeper in land where they have no missions
 

earlofbrigand

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Genoa lost it's political influence after the Ottomans et al nabbed it's trade - it became a battleground between France and the HRE. France used it for military logistics (port) and the HRE for trade.

Spain and Portugal made a lot of cash from the New World, but a lot of goods went to the HRE and elsewhere - so it's not completely ahistorical. Presumably, you won't be able to steer much there anyway as the Iberian nations will dominate Sevilla. If someone else gets in there, it would make sense to be able to steer trade home.
 
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GamingHUD

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Really like this change.

Interesting possibilities are increased with trade flowing to Genoa, with no meaningful downsides. Left unattended, both Castille and Portugal are perfectly capable of continuing to dominate and get incredibly rich from Sevilla even with an outflow.
 
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EMT0

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It's my fault really. Never embark in a discussion with someone who says that is debatable if Portugal was ever a great power. I end my participation in this thread.

Portugal was never a great power comparable to the French, Austrians, or Spanish. They were a significant state during the early stages of the Age of Exploration due to being first when it came to Indian trade but soon lost that crown to the Dutch and the English and were relegated to something between an economic colony and political satellite for the English or Spanish on and off until Napoleon's invasion. Great Power implies that they had the ability to significantly affect the diplomatic game in Europe, which is something I can't say we ever saw them do.

there is a good point, in most of my games portugal and spain go for marocco and become backward in adm points, but i guess these 2 bt provinces in the inland are really worth it to spend 100 adm for coring each

The thing is, Portugal was really, really interested in conquering Morocco. But their king died invading it and Portugal fell under a personal union to Spain. It's not that it's unhistorical or unreasonable, it's that the cost of coring the Maghreb is ridiculous.

But if we're airing out our grievances with the Iberian Peninsula, Castille should be a basketcase country at the start; there's a reason its king and heir are godawful. It took a quasi-coup on the part of Ferdinard and Isabella to chart the country back into prominence in the European political sphere via the breaking of the power of the nobles. To be frank, Iberia as-is sucks. Portugal and Aragon don't get to contest the crown of Castille in a race to unite Hispania under their dynasty as they did historically, instead Castille gets to stomp on Aragon until an event decides to heal all wounds and magically bind Aragon under Castille. And after that Portugal has a tiny chance of uniting with the crowns of Spain via random luck instead of being something a player/the AI can actively work for as can be demonstrated through the continuous attempts to marry the three crowns under one ruler. So much wrong with the existing setup. We never see a Portugal-Castille Spain, or a fully united Iberian peninsula, just the standard Spain formed by Castille landing an event, or eating Aragon and then landing the event anyways because of reasons.

tl;dr nerf Castille or make them start in some form of 'Nobles control everything' crisis that can only be broken by an event chain that sees either an independent albeit bloody Castille emerging from a pseudo-civil war or a showdown between Portugal and Aragon over the crown of Castille pls
 
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yerm

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It's my fault really. Never embark in a discussion with someone who says that is debatable if Portugal was ever a great power. I end my participation in this thread.

It is debatable if Portugal was ever a great power. It's equally debatable if the Netherlands or Venice were ever a great power. It's debatable if Serbia, Hungary, Bosnia, Romania, etc were ever a great power, or really it's not debatable they simply were not. Doesn't stop people from so many of these never-been-a-great-power countries from loving their country; why should it be a problem for you?