Will Sevilla steer to Genoa? Isn't unhistorical?

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Metz

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in fact i really like the change, because it represents the unabilty of the iberians to keep the big new world wealth into their realm and takes their later downfall beforehand


This is true. Spain mismanaged and mispent the money the wealth they gained from the New World. They practically funded the industries of other countries where they had territory, such as the Netherlands and some provinces in Italy.
 

Greenskyguy

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Well, I for one welcome our new Italian overlords.
 
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arctus

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This is true. Spain mismanaged and mispent the money the wealth they gained from the New World. They practically funded the industries of other countries where they had territory, such as the Netherlands and some provinces in Italy.

its kind of tragic when you think about it, because spain wasted all that wealth on fruitless wars it basically can only loose in the long run, should have spend it in industrial and infrastructure developement instead
 
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elpibeuruguayo

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its kind of tragic when you think about it, because spain wasted all that wealth on fruitless wars it basically can only loose in the long run, should have spend it in industrial and infrastructure developement instead
Yes but Spain had to help his Hasburgs cousins. :( Spain should do the same as Portugal, the f*** with Europe lest go to the sea. However without Spain no Lepanto, so, hello Turkish Italy :confused:
 

chrnno

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its kind of tragic when you think about it, because spain wasted all that wealth on fruitless wars it basically can only loose in the long run, should have spend it in industrial and infrastructure developement instead
Yes but Spain had to help his Hasburgs cousins. :( Spain should do the same as Portugal, the f*** with Europe lest go to the sea. However without Spain no Lepanto, so, hello Turkish Italy :confused:
Meh IMHO Portugal did even worse than Spain since the latter can at least make the claim on wasting their money on trying(and succeeding) to greatly influence things in Europe. Portugal wasted their money on nothing.
 
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elpibeuruguayo

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Meh IMHO Portugal did even worse than Spain since the latter can at least make the claim on wasting their money on trying(and succeeding) to greatly influence things in Europe. Portugal wasted their money on nothing.
Actually, In what the porguese lost their money?. They have a nice colonial empire, no Thirty years war, no invasion of the country until Napoleon, ect.
 

grommile

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Actually, In what the porguese lost their money?. They have a nice colonial empire, no Thirty years war, no invasion of the country until Napoleon, ect.
  • After a horrible military defeat against Morocco, they spent a sizeable chunk of time under a personal union with Spain, being used to help fight Spain's battles.
  • The Dutch, English, and French all muscled in on their trade routes from Africa and the East Indies.
  • Their American colonial holdings were never as impressive as Spain's.
  • An earthquake basically destroyed Lisbon (and did quite a lot of damage to the country as a whole) in 1755.
  • Napoleon occupied the country.
 
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chrnno

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Actually, In what the porguese lost their money?. They have a nice colonial empire, no Thirty years war, no invasion of the country until Napoleon, ect.
Well to be fair they wasted a bit due the occupations in Morocco but the main problem is that while they had money from what was for a long period the greatest trade empire in the world and still a great one for even longer due to being the pioneers in a dozen different ways they used that money to buy things from other (European) countries, in big constructions and other random shit instead of investing into their own development so very little money actually benefited Portugal in the long term.

Helping out Spain during Iberian Union(which was partially repaid by the military help in keeping their colonies and expansion in Brazil), breaking free of the Union, the Earthquake of Lisbon and later the French Revolution also played a part but that was later and simply ensured nearly a century of very bad decisions was never made up for. Not that they really tried mind.
 
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BFTeixeira

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The Ottomans, Hansa, Denmark, Egypt, Persia, Oman and plenty of other nations manage to make plenty from trade without end nodes, stop pretending like Sevilla having a single outflow will be the end of the world, particularly when Spain controls a chunk of the trade power in it anyway.

Also, to be fair, the Spanish Empire gained most of its wealth from Silver and Gold from the new world rather than trade.
It would be absolutely correct IF the Iberia Peninsula had only Spain. AI Portugal has already problems in maintaining it's overseas empire due to the LB mechanic; if you also take away part of it's trade income, while BUFFING Castile and Aragon with new provinces, you're portraing a Portugal as poor and insignificant as today's Portugal, which is a major mistake by Pdx.
 
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BFTeixeira

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The Ottomans, Hansa, Denmark, Egypt, Persia, Oman and plenty of other nations manage to make plenty from trade without end nodes, stop pretending like Sevilla having a single outflow will be the end of the world, particularly when Spain controls a chunk of the trade power in it anyway.

Also, to be fair, the Spanish Empire gained most of its wealth from Silver and Gold from the new world rather than trade.
Funny, of all those nations, only 1 usually survives to end of the game: the super-hiper-mega OP Ottomans.
 
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BFTeixeira

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Meh IMHO Portugal did even worse than Spain since the latter can at least make the claim on wasting their money on trying(and succeeding) to greatly influence things in Europe. Portugal wasted their money on nothing.
Portugal did the same as Spain... financed other countries industrialization (mainly the english one). Not "wasted their money on nothing".
 
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chrnno

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Nowadays AI Portugal can't even keep Brazil.
Hum? The earliest I have ever them lose Brazil was late 17th century and that was one that since late 16th century had the entirety of the Brazil colonial region and spent that century expanding beyond it so was among the top 5 nations in the world.
Portugal did the same as Spain... financed other countries industrialization (mainly the english one). Not "wasted their money on nothing".
For the country of Portugal that is nothing.
 

BFTeixeira

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Actually, In what the porguese lost their money?. They have a nice colonial empire, no Thirty years war, no invasion of the country until Napoleon, ect.
Lost a lot of money to England. Bought their assistance in the 1640 war of independence from Spain, made some horrendous deals with England, and spent an outrageous amount of money to rebuild Lisbon after the 1755 massive earthquake (this alone between losses and rebuild the city was more than one year of the nation's GDP).
 
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how it come portugal financed especially english industrialization?
Never stopped to ask yourself why almost all the Porto wine brands are english named? Portugal bought lot's and lot's of manufactured produts from England, in exchange for Porto wine. It reached the point where whole plantations were dealt to the english.