Will Sevilla steer to Genoa? Isn't unhistorical?

[elpibeuruguayo]

Why would Spain had to take importance Europe? Portugal historically was concentrated in the sea. Spain should be able to do that. The King Philip II of Spain had to chooise of move the capital to Lisboa (to concentrated in the sea), move the capital to Barcelona (to concentraded in the mediterranean) or have the capital in Madrid. The only reason that Spain had to interview in Europe was to help their Habsburg cousins or defend the Mediterranean and Italy of Ottomans/France or to fight protestantism. A Spanish ruler should have the optioon to say f*** Europe, lets go to Americas.

 

[BFTeixeira]

Nerfing Portugal from its current richest nation on the planet position is sorely needed. Unless I am mistaken and Portugal was the richest historically.

No nation was the richest through the 477 years of the game. During the end of the XV and the first half of the XVI centuries, Portugal was probably the richest nation in western europe. So, position the game in a way where Portugal will be severely nerfed in the amount of trade gathered that itself generated, is absurd.

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

No nation was the richest through the 477 years of the game. During the end of the XV and the first half of the XVI centuries, Portugal was probably the richest nation in western europe. So, position the game in a way where Portugal will be severely nerfed in the amount of trade gathered that itself generated, is absurd.

In Western Mediterranean you should have 3 end nodes Lisboa, Seville and Genoa.

 

[Panzerschiffe]

Well, this change ought to make things more interesting for Europe. Seville will still be rich but "Italian Ambition" now makes more sense.

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

It wouldnt be a problem if trade node and trade route modding wasnt that harcore.

 

[Aries666]

No nation was the richest through the 477 years of the game. During the end of the XV and the first half of the XVI centuries, Portugal was probably the richest nation in western europe. So, position the game in a way where Portugal will be severely nerfed in the amount of trade gathered that itself generated, is absurd.

I don't think it does much for gameplay when Portugal makes more in trade than pretty much every other country makes in total. However, I guess fixing this would be more in line with nerfing trade relative to other sources of income and not necessarily nerfing the trade income in Iberia.

 

[Tacticus101]

The Ottomans, Hansa, Denmark, Egypt, Persia, Oman and plenty of other nations manage to make plenty from trade without end nodes, stop pretending like Sevilla having a single outflow will be the end of the world, particularly when Spain controls a chunk of the trade power in it anyway.

Also, to be fair, the Spanish Empire gained most of its wealth from Silver and Gold from the new world rather than trade.

 

[gall]

It wouldnt be a problem if trade node and trade route modding wasnt that harcore.

Trade mechanic in EU4 leads to fairly complicated (in terms of computation power required) problem in general. One could simplify computation (and improve accuracy) greatly if graphs (maps of trade nodes) suffice specific conditions (e.g. max two paths from any node to any other node). Some hard caps on maximal number of direct predecessors and successors are bare minimum to assure it can be done in reasonable time. If you need to run multiple scenarios for AI (place merchant here or here, same for trade fleet or conquering provinces) you will need far more assumptions.
Bidirectional trade nodes (trade value could flow only one way at the moment, but direction could change) with decrease to power value only if it is running circles increase computation required by factor proportional to number of possible basic circles (there is no smaller circle in each one).
EDIT: Ok, it is not that bad. Without bidirectional trade you could always find right order (of nodes in which you calculate trade flows), which require only calculating trade flows in each node only once. You don't even need to use matrices.. It still could be a problem if AI need trade simulations to make decisions.

 

[Promanco]

Historically shouldnt Seville steer towards English Channel? I am pretty sure most of the wealth from Spain end up in the Low Countries or London because of the retardation of the Spanish crown.
Furthermore Venice should have some kind of event to eventually steer towards Wein altho I understand the engine can't handle this change :/

 

[No idea]

Historically shouldnt Seville steer towards English Channel? I am pretty sure most of the wealth from Spain end up in the Low Countries or London because of the retardation of the Spanish crown.
Furthermore Venice should have some kind of event to eventually steer towards Wein altho I understand the engine can't handle this change :/

No. You are mistaking the Port of Seville (which was a real end node in the sense that everything that went in or out of the new world had to go through it) with the loans the habsburgs asked to the Fuggers, which werent flemish, but german, iirc. Later, they also asked for money to genovese moneylenders.

 

[chrnno]

Thanks, but now I see one huge problem: France could possibly seat on two end-nodes without any efforts.

Not really. In English Channel there is England and whoever gets Netherlands, in Genoa there is Genoa and Aragon(assuming it takes Provence which is no guarantee) all of which naturally get more trade power from provinces and will focus in that direction too. Compare that to Bordeaux that after expelling England and conquering Brittany was basically a monopoly since Castille/Spain only had a handful normal provinces and didn't generally contest.

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

Why would Spain had to take importance Europe? Portugal historically was concentrated in the sea. Spain should be able to do that. The King Philip II of Spain had to chooise of move the capital to Lisboa (to concentrated in the sea), move the capital to Barcelona (to concentraded in the mediterranean) or have the capital in Madrid. The only reason that Spain had to interview in Europe was to help their Habsburg cousins or defend the Mediterranean and Italy of Ottomans/France or to fight protestantism. A Spanish ruler should have the optioon to say f*** Europe, lets go to Americas.

If Spain and Portugal still would make money with the New Word, I will not have problems with Genoa core.

 

[Panzerschiffe]

If Spain and Portugal still would make money with the New Word, I will not have problems with Genoa core.

They will.

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

They will.

My only issue is that Portugal that was a country that were concentrated in sea, would had to "have italy ambitions" that of course they didnt have.

 

[Tacticus101]

My only issue is that Portugal that was a country that were concentrated in sea, would had to "have italy ambitions" that of course they didnt have.

They will still make loads of money from trade, not being an end node will barely make a difference. Spain was always the one they had to compete with for trade anyway.

 

[Panzerschiffe]

My only issue is that Portugal that was a country that were concentrated in sea, would had to "have italy ambitions" that of course they didnt have.

Why would they? With all their CoT and Estuaries, they control the Seville node and collect there. They can concentrate at sea like you say and build light ships to further protect trade. Land wars aren't their thing except for getting Tangiers.

It sounds like Portugal can still play the game the same way (ie simply colonizing) and still get rich. We'll just have to wait and see just how much this change affects them.

 

[arctus]

i see no real problem with this change, sevilla will be just like constantinople a de-facto end node, with some trade going to italy which i think quite nice

 

[Metz]

Sevilla goes to Genoa now, the idea is to force Spain to care about Europe instead of just sitting in their peninsula.

Any other node changes? Champagne to Genoa right?

 

[Promanco]

No. You are mistaking the Port of Seville (which was a real end node in the sense that everything that went in or out of the new world had to go through it) with the loans the habsburgs asked to the Fuggers, which werent flemish, but german, iirc. Later, they also asked for money to genovese moneylenders.

"everything that went in or out of the new world had to go through it" That is not what defines a End Node, isnt an End Node suppose to represent where the wealth ends up? I would argue it was NOT Spain(or Portugal for that matter)

 

[arctus]

in fact i really like the change, because it represents the unabilty of the iberians to keep the big new world wealth into their realm and takes their later downfall beforehand