Will Sevilla steer to Genoa? Isn't unhistorical?

[matissvein]

Try getting out of Europe sometime and you wouldn't cry as much Forum Bahbees.

Playing as Malaya in 17th century is brutal to the trade income, if you havent been quick enough to colonize every island.

 

[BFTeixeira]

1. We aren't talking about colonizing of anything, were talking about colonization as a game mechanic and specifically of the americas where being there first gets you a boost based off the catholic treaty system and easily allows Portugal to eat up half of the Americas
2. You have to balance both history and game mechanics, for them to be making that much money with no risk reward involved suggests bad game mechanics
3 and 5. did you seriously just argue for something by saying its historical and then argue against something by saying its railroading? Also Ottomans have things that cause their decline, mainly tech group. As well as the long term issue of try to hold together a multi cultural, multi relgious empire, any serious war exhaustion or stability loss and everyone rebels

1. Again a poor game mechanic. The ToT is poorly designed, and although i did ask Pdx for it, they did a poor job with it. I prefer playing the colonizing game without it.
2. That's why every nation historically started to get envolved in the colonial game. Central European powers began to understand that there was very little risk to the reward given by exploring and colonizing all over the world, as they saw Portugal and Castille become more and more powerful thanks to it.
3 and 5. Completely different points. The first as the objective to force something that never happened. The second has the objective to nerf a nation from the beginning because historically it started to downfall 150 years later in the game timelapse.
The Ottomans tech group is hardly a cause for downfall. I've played several times with the Ottomans and never felt the need to westernize. Ottomans are the most OP nation in the game, and you just need to take Religious idea group and you'll be fine to end of the game.

 

[Sandmann]

so
genoa is endnode
bordeaux goes to champagne which goes to genoa? it's an option for france now to move trade capital to genoa and steal/collect big spanish trade income (just send lightships as much as u can to two nodes)

Who said anything about Genoa being endnode?

 

[blackchoas]

1. Again a poor game mechanic. The ToT is poorly designed, and although i did ask Pdx for it, they did a poor job with it. I prefer playing the colonizing game without it.
2. That's why every nation historically started to get envolved in the colonial game. Central European powers began to understand that there was very little risk to the reward given by exploring and colonizing all over the world, as they saw Portugal and Castille become more and more powerful thanks to it.
3 and 5. Completely different points. The first as the objective to force something that never happened. The second has the objective to nerf a nation from the beginning because historically it started to downfall 150 years later in the game timelapse.
The Ottomans tech group is hardly a cause for downfall. I've played several times with the Ottomans and never felt the need to westernize. Ottomans are the most OP nation in the game, and you just need to take Religious idea group and you'll be fine to end of the game.

2. Except that the way the game sets things up you don't really have the wars over such things that you had historically, its not that colonization shouldn't be low risk in its itself, its that it rarely leads to conflict as it historically did. This is also rather true for colonization and "trade posts" around Africa and into India, the war between Oman and Portugal, which led to not only the Portuguese loss of Muscat but also of Zanzibar and other East African territory could pretty much never happen, although thats no just because Portugal is given an overly favorable trade set up but mostly due to other issues
3 and 5. How is nerfing Portugal's trade set up a nerf to them in 1444? they will be losing very little from the new path since no one has serious control of Genoa and people can't afford large trade fleets to overpower Castile and Portugals Centers of Trade and River Estuaries. It is however a problem 100-150 years down the line, when Portugal is bring massive amounts of money back to the node from the New World and India, so even a small amount lost can equal hundreds of ducats a year and Spain has formed and thus switched from collecting from Seville to channeling to the end node in Genoa instead

Also a player has no issue preventing the Ottomans from collapsing, the same is true with any nation, in terms of player vs AI it doesn't matter who you are, player comes out on top, however there is a question of what should be possible for the AI, and with the current set up, there is no possibility for AI Portugal to fail or decline without player intervention, Poland, Austria, Ottomans, I have seen the AI be near unstoppable as any of these and get completely destroyed as any of these often without me doing anything. I have seen France lose to Burgundy, England fail to conquer Scotland, and Castile lose to Aragon but I have never seen AI Portugal do poorly

 

[grommile]

How about complete removeal of end trades?

When Paradox decide it's worth reimplementing the trade system and associated AI and user interface from the ground up again, I dare say they'll investigate a more fluid setup.

 

[BFTeixeira]

2. Except that the way the game sets things up you don't really have the wars over such things that you had historically, its not that colonization shouldn't be low risk in its itself, its that it rarely leads to conflict as it historically did. This is also rather true for colonization and "trade posts" around Africa and into India, the war between Oman and Portugal, which led to not only the Portuguese loss of Muscat but also of Zanzibar and other East African territory could pretty much never happen, although thats no just because Portugal is given an overly favorable trade set up but mostly due to other issues
3 and 5. How is nerfing Portugal's trade set up a nerf to them in 1444? they will be losing very little from the new path since no one has serious control of Genoa and people can't afford large trade fleets to overpower Castile and Portugals Centers of Trade and River Estuaries. It is however a problem 100-150 years down the line, when Portugal is bring massive amounts of money back to the node from the New World and India, so even a small amount lost can equal hundreds of ducats a year and Spain has formed and thus switched from collecting from Seville to channeling to the end node in Genoa instead

Also a player has no issue preventing the Ottomans from collapsing, the same is true with any nation, in terms of player vs AI it doesn't matter who you are, player comes out on top, however there is a question of what should be possible for the AI, and with the current set up, there is no possibility for AI Portugal to fail or decline without player intervention, Poland, Austria, Ottomans, I have seen the AI be near unstoppable as any of these and get completely destroyed as any of these often without me doing anything. I have seen France lose to Burgundy, England fail to conquer Scotland, and Castile lose to Aragon but I have never seen AI Portugal do poorly

2. Conflicts that started over colonies are actually well represented in game. It just lacks the same mechanics for Trade Companies, but let's wait for the final DD on Common Sense, to see if there's an improvement in that area.
The part about the conflicts between europeans and locals, well, that's once again the fact that Pdx gives so few power to asian nations, that they're useless against europeans.
3 and 5. It's not the trade nerf. It's the trade nerf PLUS buffing Castile and Aragon with new provinces. I don't get what they're trying to do, but if it is a strategy to help Castile/Aragon survive to a buffed France, then it's just building mistakes over mistakes to correct other mistakes.
About the trade nodes, it is already wrong to place Portugal in a Seville trade node, as Portugal would direct all that trade to Lisboa, and not to an enemie's trade node. It's absolutely ahistorical to have Castile benefit from Portugal's trade and vice-versa, as they were constantly at war.

I've seen AI Portugal become completely irrelevant lately. Mostly because of the Liberty Desire mechanic, which i absolutely support. It's not that easy for the AI to maintain their CN's, and in my current game, Caribe and Brazil went independent from Portugal. So, right now, they are just surviving because of the historical friends (LOL) modifier. And i have nothing against that. But with this nerf, Portugal will become even weaker, and the AI will struggle even more to maintain an overseas empire.

 

[zdlugasz]

Who said anything about Genoa being endnode?

Wiz himself said that Sevile feeds Genoa. We also know from screenshots that French Cots feed Genoa as well.
And three new achievements are mentioned - specifically tailored for end nodes - for Venice, Channel and Genoa

 

[panther29]

1. Not really, they were the first to start exploration and trade with India, but Spain was the one that discovered America and began colonization

They were the longest lasting colonial empire (macau and angola and mozambique). First to colonize (azores, madiera, arguin, cape, el mina). First to sail an OPEN ocean and not along the coast. By 1550, they had a chain of forts from Lisbon to Nagasaki. If they decided to focus on the New World, they could have colonized much more the Brazil, if they ignored the treaty of tordesillas.
And this part is speculation, but there are theories of the Portuguese reaching the New World way before Castile (the fact that they moved the line of the treaty of tordesilas to include more of Brazil, before the discovery of Brazil)

 

[myrsl0ken]

When Paradox decide it's worth reimplementing the trade system and associated AI and user interface from the ground up again, I dare say they'll investigate a more fluid setup.

Considering how large an update the new fortress system is to war, an updated trade system in EU4 just went from inconcievable to unlikely.

 

[matissvein]

I didnt mean a complete revamp of the current trade system, just a removal of end nodes, so the trade can circulate freely.

 

[chrnno]

I didnt mean a complete revamp of the current trade system, just a removal of end nodes, so the trade can circulate freely.

That is a complete revamp of the trade system.

As it is currently the system necessarily requires end(and start for that matter) nodes, changing that is probably easier by writing a new one than making changes to the current one.

It is why suggestions like creating/moving end nodes or giving bonuses to collected value based on how much(percentage? total? combined? is being steered away are brought up.

 

[BFTeixeira]

They were the longest lasting colonial empire (macau and angola and mozambique). First to colonize (azores, madiera, arguin, cape, el mina). First to sail an OPEN ocean and not along the coast. By 1550, they had a chain of forts from Lisbon to Nagasaki. If they decided to focus on the New World, they could have colonized much more the Brazil, if they ignored the treaty of tordesillas.
And this part is speculation, but there are theories of the Portuguese reaching the New World way before Castile (the fact that they moved the line of the treaty of tordesilas to include more of Brazil, before the discovery of Brazil)

Although speculation, it explains not only why the portuguese crown chose twice to not support the Columbus project, and the fact that they demanded the ToT line to be much further west than initially suggested.
One other circunstancial proof, is that the sea routes they had to follow after the equator, is that due to the alisian winds and sea currents they had to sail south west instead of southeast (going towards the Brazil coast, instead the Cameroon Coast). It's more than likely that in one of the voyages towards India, one of the vessels could be pushed further west enabling it to see the Brazilian coastline.

 

[Chief Iacid]

Sevilla goes to Genoa now, the idea is to force Spain to care about Europe instead of just sitting in their peninsula.

He-he, that's exactly what I'm doing in my Spanish campaign right now. I'll have to give them credits, Paradox devs are wise and cunning...

 

[Thrake]

That Spain for example hadnt to conquer Genoa, because they made a lot of money with the New World, but the delete of the Seville End Node and the creation of the Genoa one, all the money of the New World would go to Genoa, and Spain and Portugal will go poor.

I really think you are over estimating it. Sevilla is reach because it directly feeds from Africa (India)/America and has loads of trade power that allow for a good share of "passive" steering even without ships patrolling it. Not being an end node means that they'll loose, what, 10% of trade value even without any control over Genoa. Either way, it will still be in a much better position to benefit from new world trade than Genoa, because they will be able to collect it before Genoa gets a chance.

Poor nodes are small ones (African ones; a few light ships or a "big" upstream node is enough to steer most of it), or those with few/poor nodes feeding it (North Amerian nodes). Sevilla is neither of those so it will remain rich. From a gameplay perspective, it's from the better.

 

[panther29]

Although speculation, it explains not only why the portuguese crown chose twice to not support the Columbus project, and the fact that they demanded the ToT line to be much further west than initially suggested.
One other circunstancial proof, is that the sea routes they had to follow after the equator, is that due to the alisian winds and sea currents they had to sail south west instead of southeast (going towards the Brazil coast, instead the Cameroon Coast). It's more than likely that in one of the voyages towards India, one of the vessels could be pushed further west enabling it to see the Brazilian coastline.

Also there are maps which may be from as early as 1450's showing Nova Scotia. Although the date is not proven, the journey from the Azores to Nova Scotia takes half as long as Columbus's voyage from the Canarias to the Carribean. This would explain the Portuguese presence and claims there in 1500's.

 

[EMT0]

It is pretty well circulated that Spanish gold from the new world more often than not ended up in Genoese banking houses...

 

[Zak Preston]

Sevilla goes to Genoa now, the idea is to force Spain to care about Europe instead of just sitting in their peninsula.

Аre there any plans to remake English Channel and Bordeaux trade nodes to force Netherlands, England and more important, France to move their a$$e$ instead of sitting on their rivers of gold?

 

[Aries666]

I'm more worried about Portugal, rather than Spain with this change. At least Spain has Barcelona and Valencia, 2 trade ports or estuaries in Genoa. France can have Provence and can conquer Genova.
Portugal has nothing in Genoa.

Nerfing Portugal from its current richest nation on the planet position is sorely needed. Unless I am mistaken and Portugal was the richest historically.

 

[chrnno]

Аre there any plans to remake English Channel and Bordeaux trade nodes to force Netherlands, England and more important, France to move their a$$e$ instead of sitting on their rivers of gold?

Bordeaux is no longer end node so England, Netherlands and France all compete for English Channel thus would want to take the others out.

 

[Zak Preston]

Bordeaux is no longer end node so England, Netherlands and France all compete for English Channel thus would want to take the others out.

Thanks, but now I see one huge problem: France could possibly seat on two end-nodes without any efforts.