Will Sevilla steer to Genoa? Isn't unhistorical?

[Fluffy_Fishy]

But that ruins gameplay of Spain and France because thay have to conquer Genoa, a thing that they didnt because they not needed Genoa. You have just delete 2 end nodes of two nations that deserve and make one for one nation that in the time period of EUIV enter in decadence.

What is wrong with that? France was always eyeing up the north of italy, Especially Milan and Genoa.

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

What is wrong with that? France was always eyeing up the north of italy, Especially Milan and Genoa.

That Spain for example hadnt to conquer Genoa, because they made a lot of money with the New World, but the delete of the Seville End Node and the creation of the Genoa one, all the money of the New World would go to Genoa, and Spain and Portugal will go poor.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

That Spain for example hadnt to conquer Genoa, because they made a lot of money with the New World, but the delete of the Seville End Node and the creation of the Genoa one, all the money of the New World would go to Genoa, and Spain and Portugal will go poor.

I don't see that really happening, the way trade works now doesn't give so much trade power to the little one province states sapping everything. if you control it properly there is very little leakage to be concerned about, reality is, quite a lot of the trade did make its way to italy aswell, sure not as much as spain and portugal but why do you think there is modern day value in things like italian coffee.

 

[Galaahd]

You are misunderstood, the uneasy relationship between the ottomons and the merchant republics did not cause the downfall of mediterranian trade. The downfall was caused by the utter dominance of Venice. Remember Christopher Columbus was a Genoan, and the expedition sailors were also mostly Genoan, as were the boats. The Ottomans, while expansionist did not as much destroy mediterranian trade as much as taking out their main rival for sea power, when you destory the main trader, trade will diminish. Remember at this point the Venetian arsenal could build a new ship every day. I don't see it as unfair at all that Genoa get the chance to be a part of the new world trade nodes, they were a huge part in the search for the new world.

You are underestimating the enormous expenses (both in costs, materials, loss of profit and men) of fighting the Ottomans at sea during the 15th and 16th centuries. It was, by all means, a titanic struggle, something akin to the Cold War in terms of military expenditure.

It ended up drying all the resources not only of Venice, but of Genoa and the other italian states as well.

 

[waddles]

All of the energy about which countries *deserve* an end node should be refocused. Let's fix trade so end nodes are not so privledged in the first place.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

You are underestimating the enormous expenses (both in costs, materials, loss of profit and men) of fighting the Ottomans at sea during the 15th and 16th centuries. It was, by all means, a titanic struggle, something akin to the Cold War in terms of military expenditure.

It ended up drying all the resources not only of Venice, but of Genoa and the other italian states as well.

I'm not denying that, by that point Genoa had kind of crumbled under continued political struggles and expeditions by the milanese and french. Pisa was in decline from pressue both from the Genoans and their local rivals. Venice was seen as the first and biggest threat by the turks with their new seat in Istanbul/Constantinople, partly due to the fact they were the only other nation to have successfully seiged Constantinople and partly due to their overwhelming sea power and cash. I think Europe was genuinely quite shocked when the Ottomans got the upper hand at sea (mostly due to sheer incompetance and complatancy of Venetian leadership), which was when the rest of Europe started to step in, Austria and Spain for example.

All of the energy about which countries *deserve* an end node should be refocused. Let's fix trade so end nodes are not so privledged in the first place.

I entirely agree, I feel like England got some nerfing when they changed the Channel Trade Node, Its only fair that Seville gets a similar treatment. I would really like to see a slightly more fluid trade system, it just seems unfair that no matter how powerful certain nations may be, they will still receive penalties for being slightly in the wrong place.

 

[Freudia]

But that ruins gameplay of Spain and France because thay have to conquer Genoa, a thing that they didnt because they not needed Genoa. You have just delete 2 end nodes of two nations that deserve and make one for one nation that in the time period of EUIV enter in decadence.

I'm not a fan of handing nations things on a gold and silver platter just for existing, so I have no qualms about 'ruining' the gameplay of Spain and France.

Besides, didn't these nations have Italian ambitions anyways?

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

I'm not a fan of handing nations things on a gold and silver platter just for existing, so I have no qualms about 'ruining' the gameplay of Spain and France.

Besides, didn't these nations have Italian ambitions anyways?

Yes but they didnt want Italy for trade, At the beginning the war for Napoles and Milan, later was for stop venecian expansion, after the french wanted Napoles again, after was for stop France, later was for Milan again, later was from stop a french-ottoman invasion of Italy and the last was France for reconquest the Italian possesions. In no moment Spain or France were interested in genoa, Spain was making a lot of money from the New World, and France was thinking of how to beat Spain.

 

[Freudia]

Yes but they didnt want Italy for trade, At the beginning the war for Napoles and Milan, later was for stop venecian expansion, after the french wanted Napoles again, after was for stop France, later was for Milan again, later was from stop a french-ottoman invasion of Italy and the last was France for reconquest the Italian possesions. In no moment Spain or France were interested in genoa, Spain was making a lot of money from the New World, and France was thinking of how to beat Spain.

And currently in-game France and Spain have no interest in going for various Italian concessions. The trade layout change encourages these nations who formerly had no reason (outside of player "I must conquer everything!") in-game to want to go for Italy to actually go for Italy. I don't see anything wrong with this from a strict gameplay sense.

Besides, it's not like nerfing some of the strongest nations in the game overall is a bad thing, especially when the reason they're strong is that they don't have to deal with most of the things that those nations had to deal with historically (French War of Religion, Spanish Bankruptcy, and so on). Sure the French War of Religion is a thing that can happen in-game, but it's nowhere near as problematic in-game as it was in history.

Gives the European colonizers more reason to actually become invested in European affairs, gives Italy a chance at colonizing without getting nothing for their efforts. What's not to like here?

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

And currently in-game France and Spain have no interest in going for various Italian concessions. The trade layout change encourages these nations who formerly had no reason (outside of player "I must conquer everything!") in-game to want to go for Italy to actually go for Italy. I don't see anything wrong with this from a strict gameplay sense.

Besides, it's not like nerfing some of the strongest nations in the game overall is a bad thing, especially when the reason they're strong is that they don't have to deal with most of the things that those nations had to deal with historically (French War of Religion, Spanish Bankruptcy, and so on). Sure the French War of Religion is a thing that can happen in-game, but it's nowhere near as problematic in-game as it was in history.

Gives the European colonizers more reason to actually become invested in European affairs, gives Italy a chance at colonizing without getting nothing for their efforts. What's not to like here?

The problem that I have is if all of god of Americas ends on Genoa insteand of Seville, the people complains about colonizing as an Italian nation is worthless because the trade ends in Seville, and with this I fear that the situation will revert. So colonizing as Spain would be worthless because all ends in Genoa. And with this goodbye Spain and Portugal colonizing in the New World.

 

[waddles]

If Spain pre-collects in Seville and collects again with main trading port in Genoa, it'll do fine. Sorry Portugal.

But still, clearly the issue is that end nodes are too strong, not who gets the end node.

 

[pikaemperor]

The problem that I have is if all of god of Americas ends on Genoa insteand of Seville, the people complains about colonizing as an Italian nation is worthless because the trade ends in Seville, and with this I fear that the situation will revert. So colonizing as Spain would be worthless because all ends in Genoa. And with this goodbye Spain and Portugal colonizing in the New World.

The problem is that american nodes have no connection to italian nodes, so it's impossible to get anything from american trade without losing the steering bonus to trade power.

 

[Duke of Britain]

Yes but they didnt want Italy for trade, At the beginning the war for Napoles and Milan, later was for stop venecian expansion, after the french wanted Napoles again, after was for stop France, later was for Milan again, later was from stop a french-ottoman invasion of Italy and the last was France for reconquest the Italian possesions. In no moment Spain or France were interested in genoa, Spain was making a lot of money from the New World, and France was thinking of how to beat Spain.

Stop trying to make such claims.

They did not want Italian trade? Sure as hell they wanted its trade and cities. Italian trade was rich as hell and especially the north was heavily urbanized, Lombardia was extremely wealthy and Naples was one of the largest cities in Europe for much of the timeframe, how is that undesirable? The Spanish literally bankrupted themselves thanks to the Italian wars because Italy was THAT important and if France, the already most populous country in Europe and the one with the largest potential, conquered Italy, then Habsburg interests would be greatly endangered.

And Genoa was under Spanish and later French influence and had important banks for both France and Spain during the majority of the timeframe, so you are very wrong in claiming that they "were not interested in Genoa" when they had massive interests in influencing and protecting the Genoese. Simply conquering Genoa would have far worse consequences than maintaining its independence, and that's the reason they did not came storming the city and destroying its banking families.

The problem that I have is if all of god of Americas ends on Genoa insteand of Seville, the people complains about colonizing as an Italian nation is worthless because the trade ends in Seville, and with this I fear that the situation will revert. So colonizing as Spain would be worthless because all ends in Genoa. And with this goodbye Spain and Portugal colonizing in the New World.

???

Your fear is unfounded. Sevilla has a lot of CoTs and Estuaries and a lot of provinces under the control of two very powerful naval GPs (Portugal and Spain), how do you expect Sevilla to become weak? Almost no trade would leak from there, and with Spanish expansion in Genoa (Hello Aragon) it would mean that the situation would be much like the one in the Constantinople node: A de facto end-node.

 

[bbqftw]

considering that an Iberian Wedding'd Spain will have two bonused trade provinces in Genoa, they'll even have trade propagation going towards Sevilla.

Almost no trade would leak from there, and with Spanish expansion in Genoa (Hello Aragon) it would mean that the situation would be much like the one in the Constantinople node: A de facto end-node.

Yep. Every ROTW player knows that Zanzibar can also be made a de-facto end node as well.

 

[No idea]

If we want to be precise, spanish exploration and expansion in America was funded by italian bankers, mainly from Genoa.

IIRC most of the silver mined in the spanish colonies ended, in fact, in Genoa.

As for the goods, they were obviously shipped to Italy as well.

No. You are mistaking the loans asked to fund wars (during the xviii century, not the xvi, they were asked to genoese bankers, iirc) with the Casa de Contratacion, which was in Seville, and controlled until the xviii century everything, from peopleto goods that got into or out of the new world. Of course, its aim was mainly to assure that a part of everything went into the corwn coffers.

Anyway, if it is right pds want to make Genoa end node in excahnge of Seville it will be very ahistorical and wont improve gameplay unless you play an italian nation which belongs to Geneve and want to play the colonizer game. Two things that are not likely in most games.

All in all, not a good idea, imho.

 

[No idea]

You are misunderstood, the uneasy relationship between the ottomons and the merchant republics did not cause the downfall of mediterranian trade. The downfall was caused by the utter dominance of Venice. Remember Christopher Columbus was a Genoan, and the expedition sailors were also mostly Genoan, as were the boats. The Ottomans, while expansionist did not as much destroy mediterranian trade as much as taking out their main rival for sea power, when you destory the main trader, trade will diminish. Remember at this point the Venetian arsenal could build a new ship every day. I don't see it as unfair at all that Genoa get the chance to be a part of the new world trade nodes, they were a huge part in the search for the new world.

No. The ships and the crew were mostly from south west Spain, from Cadiz coastal towns.

Afaik, Genoa never went after the new world. If they had been, they would have financed voyages and/or established colonies.

 

[No idea]

If Spain pre-collects in Seville and collects again with main trading port in Genoa, it'll do fine. Sorry Portugal.

But still, clearly the issue is that end nodes are too strong, not who gets the end node.

Yes, end nodes are a bit like black holes. I think the best they could do is changing how the trade system works, making it more dynamic, with changing nodes and/or trade going both ways OR a mechanism that makes you pay if the trade only goes your way.

 

[Freudia]

Anyway, if it is right pds want to make Genoa end node in excahnge of Seville it will be very ahistorical and wont improve gameplay unless you play an italian nation which belongs to Geneve and want to play the colonizer game. Two things that are not likely in most games.

All in all, not a good idea, imho.

It has no major impact in a game as a standard colonizer as the trade is not likely to leave the nodes and flow into Genoa, and if any does, it's a relatively negligable percentage, and it has functionally zero impact in a game where the only nations in the Genoa node are AI nations.

It doesn't make the game worse, anyways, from a gameplay standpoint. I'd rather not touch the 'ahistorical' part because we're talking ahistoric changes in a system that goes against history anyways, so it's a pointless discussion.

 

[Galaahd]

Yes but they didnt want Italy for trade, At the beginning the war for Napoles and Milan, later was for stop venecian expansion, after the french wanted Napoles again, after was for stop France, later was for Milan again, later was from stop a french-ottoman invasion of Italy and the last was France for reconquest the Italian possesions. In no moment Spain or France were interested in genoa, Spain was making a lot of money from the New World, and France was thinking of how to beat Spain.

Actually, both countries were very interested in Genoa.

Genoa was occupied by the French in several occasions, and they wanted to bring it in the french orbit, while Genoa entered a mutually extremely profitable relationship with Spain in the course of the 16th century, and had become a financial center where most of the american silver ended up.

 

[Galaahd]

Afaik, Genoa never went after the new world. If they had been, they would have financed voyages and/or established colonies.

http://www.um.es/ixcongresoaehe/pdfB8/genoese.pdf
and

https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDsQFjAE&url=http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/52949/1/Binder1.pdf&ei=8IlhVYbmHsXZ7gaK3YPoCA&usg=AFQjCNE7drGrKC9qUu5zjgIhOdQ1KR6MYw&sig2=sefhN32OUsltOQycVBccoQ (this one is a pdf that can be downloaded)

You are mistaken, Genoa did take part to the Atlantic and American trade. They didn't need colonies, though, as they were aligned with Spain and made use of the spanish dominion in America. In fact, Genoa had a priviledged position in Seville, and it's not a coincidence that Genoa's decline came when Spain also declined.

Quoting:

CADIZ, THE CORE OF THE 18TH-CENTURY GENOESE ATLANTIC TRADE

Genoese merchants and businessmen participated in the Atlantie trade from the very first stage of the Iberian expansion overseas. As is well known, they established a veritable symbiotic alliance with the Habsburgs. By supporting Spanish imperial projeets and taking advantage of the Crown's problems with solvency, they acquired trading licenses in the Indias and dominated European finance until the Spanish "bankruptcy" of 1627.1 The Hispanic-Genoese alliance came to an end with the Treaty ofMünster (1648), which formalized the succession of the United Provinces over Genoa for transport of American silver to Flanders in exchange for countless royal concessions.2 The loss of the privileged relationship with the Crown, however, did not paralyze Genoese trade in the Spanish Empire. In a context in which the enjoyment of Atlantic trade benefits was closely linked to political and naval power, the Genoese traders, who couldn't count on political support of the mother-city or on a competitive merchant fleet, found in the Spanish monarchy new means to survive. By adopting multiple strategies of integration in the host society and trade institutions, they continued to prosper within the Spanish "monopoly", and the port of Cadiz, emporium of the Carrera de Indias, became one ofthe largest Ligurian cornmercial settlements ofthe 18th century.3

Besides, there was also a way for them (once again, thanks to the priviledged relationship with Spain) to bypass the draconian monopolistic rules and obtain licenses to sail directly to America.