Will POPs be a quantified population, or abstracted points?

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Zarine

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Maybe there will be less detailed divisions in pops, something like:

- Upper class
- Medium Class
- Lower Class

Combined with:
- Military
- Politic
- Scientific
- Religious

Combined also with other categories:
- Political ideas
- Religion (?)
- other things related to game mechanics that we don't know at the moment.

This can represent 12 base classes multiplied by how many "other categories" will be in the game. This can give a good representation of a "space empire population" with enough differentiation on each planet but who knows. Maybe devs have devised something completing new and different from Victoria.


There is one big issue with this representation : you expect that each and every society will be like that, when it's not.
There might be race where there is no class, where there is no grouping where everyone is everything when needed.
And I doubt they can softcode the behavior for each race.

For instance, let's take a case of a butterfly like race. This race is likely to be split by age rather than anything else leading to classification like:
- the caterpillars
- the cocoons
- the butterflies


When designing something like that, we must forget what we have and think about what could be. It's hard (really hard) but that's what allows the world to be wonderful.
Our society is one among thousand organization possible, why would we want to force it like ours?
 

chopak

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There is one big issue with this representation : you expect that each and every society will be like that, when it's not.
There might be race where there is no class, where there is no grouping where everyone is everything when needed.
And I doubt they can softcode the behavior for each race.

For instance, let's take a case of a butterfly like race. This race is likely to be split by age rather than anything else leading to classification like:
- the caterpillars
- the cocoons
- the butterflies


When designing something like that, we must forget what we have and think about what could be. It's hard (really hard) but that's what allows the world to be wonderful.
Our society is one among thousand organization possible, why would we want to force it like ours?


But POPs in Vicky only represent adults (adult males to be precise) so in your example it will only contain butterflies. Splitting by class is nice and generic enough. Some empires might not have some classes like some kind of socialist/communist utopia with everyone in one class, other might have hard differences between classes like castes or estates, but basic idea still stands.

Personally I think pops will b3e divided by race, class and ethos and counted in real numbers e.g. 1.5 mil of Human medium class xenophobes.
 

XRW

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Anything is fine by me as long as I don't need to constantly rebuild ships because my Orthodox, Serbian, soldier pop in macedonia got to small.
 
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RoboticManiac

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But POPs in Vicky only represent adults (adult males to be precise) so in your example it will only contain butterflies. Splitting by class is nice and generic enough. Some empires might not have some classes like some kind of socialist/communist utopia with everyone in one class, other might have hard differences between classes like castes or estates, but basic idea still stands.

Personally I think pops will b3e divided by race, class and ethos and counted in real numbers e.g. 1.5 mil of Human medium class xenophobes.
It's a safe bet it's going to be race/ class (or job depending on wording) and ethos.

The only thing that's libel to annoy me is that exceptionally small populations will be absorbed into a significantly larger one, regardless of how quickly it grows, as each tick would still end in a comparatively small starter pop. An old pet peeve of mine from Vikky.o_O
 

Valakhan

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But POPs in Vicky only represent adults (adult males to be precise) so in your example it will only contain butterflies. Splitting by class is nice and generic enough. Some empires might not have some classes like some kind of socialist/communist utopia with everyone in one class, other might have hard differences between classes like castes or estates, but basic idea still stands.

Personally I think pops will b3e divided by race, class and ethos and counted in real numbers e.g. 1.5 mil of Human medium class xenophobes.

You're still thinking exactly like a human. There is no reasons for the catterpillars to noot have a fundamental role in this butterfly's society, as well as the coocoon. How would you handle the class system in an hive-mind type of society? How would you handle it in a society that is not based on money.
Your reasonning is flawed because you assume every alien species would think the same as humans, but it's highly unlikely. I think it will only be divided by race and ethos, makes a lot more sense since social classes are a Mankind specific concept
 

AegonVLLI

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Anything is fine by me as long as I don't need to constantly rebuild ships because my Orthodox, Serbian, soldier pop in macedonia got to small.
This. The only thing I hated about Vic 2.
 
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steve.bd

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There is one big issue with this representation : you expect that each and every society will be like that, when it's not.
There might be race where there is no class, where there is no grouping where everyone is everything when needed.
And I doubt they can softcode the behavior for each race.

For instance, let's take a case of a butterfly like race. This race is likely to be split by age rather than anything else leading to classification like:
- the caterpillars
- the cocoons
- the butterflies


When designing something like that, we must forget what we have and think about what could be. It's hard (really hard) but that's what allows the world to be wonderful.
Our society is one among thousand organization possible, why would we want to force it like ours?

I think that it will be very hard to develop a dynamic system on the pops divisions because of the "procedural" nature of the game. If the playable races were fixed, it might be more plauxible or if the different divisions are fixed by race prototype (Mammalian, Arthropoid, Avian ecc...).

Anyway, I really hope to be wrong because I really like your idea ;)
 

Safehold

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It's unlikely that Paradox would do a very good job clone copying Civ 5 or Galactic Civ 1/2/3, since those games weren't made by Paradox designers and coders. Paradox's work is seen in the game systems of CK II, Victoria 2.

Even if Stellaris borrows concepts from elsewhere, they would still have to design it with their previous work in mind. Even when the subject changes for a studio, their methodology and process, their philosophical thinking, does not, unless one decapitates the leadership and replaces it with a foreign branch.

As for what connects the different population units of aliens together, the various ethos would probably determine how each pop reacts to other pops and situations on planets and in space.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-5-empires-and-species.887487/

"Keep in mind, though, that there is a clear difference between the empire you are playing and its founding race. Empires and individual population units ("Pops") have an Ethos, but a species as a whole does not. ...

It is natural for individual Pops to diverge in their Ethics, especially if they do not live in the core region of your empire. This has far reaching consequences for the internal dynamics of empires; how Pops react to your actions, and the creation and management of Factions, etc (more on that in a much later dev diary!) Traits are not as dynamic as ethics, but even they can change (or be changed - this is also something we will speak of more at a later date...)"

If 1 species is to have different ethics and philosophies, one must mechanically be able to see the difference and interact with them, unless Paradox is just making a space box simulator that runs on its own without player input. An abstraction of pop numbers and game mechanics means that the player never has a concrete grasp of it, it is just something made up arbitrarily for one reason or another. A simulation that isn't a black box, doesn't run like that. The rules and outcomes are not arbitrary. It can be changed, unlike a black box. So whether pop is x or y has to depend on concrete player or game mechanics, that is clearly visible.

In a federation, immigration or dealing with occupied populations, would fit the scale of problems Victoria 2 dealt with as well. However, unlike a historical simulation of eras, where one goes from uncivilized to literacy and INdustrial Revolution, a science fiction future has Event Horizons and various other tropes that separate one higher level species from another lower level species. Which Paradox can use as they see fit, when breaking the game up into 3 phases. Exploration/scientific investigation, expansion/empire building, and empire sustainment, internal factions, end game threats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

There are unique differences in CK2 for playing different cultures and religious mixes, as well as which nation you start with in Victoria 2, due to civilized vs uncivilized vs great power. On the galactic scale, they can also make it very different game play wise, if they go with a stark difference in power and capabilities between Class 1 and Class 3 civilizations.

To make a short comparison, Earth is at .5 to .8 on the Kardashev scale. A civ that can construct and maintain a Dyson sphere or even just a Dyson swarm around a star, would be Class 2. A ring world, would be between Class 1 and 2. Galactic level consciousnesses that can occupy an entire galaxy and vampire kill off all lifeforms on every planet at once, would be closer to a Class 3.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/273070/

As for simulation issues, if they were trying to make a game like that, with unique diplomatic mechanics for each race, they couldn't procedural generate too many random things. But if it is just the ethics and some other variables for a race, like genetics, along with the pops handling most of the load, there should be some naturally occurring mixes. Since a species can randomize their DNA or genetic traits, but that's not going to make more ethos to complicate things. A pop can change their ethos, but not their DNA, barring something tech based.

The difference between Paradox population units and various 4x pop units for me, is that the 4x pop units are more like GUI features, designed to allow the user to micro manage certain game mechanics without using large numbers or big ui icons. In Master of Magic, each worker was about 1000 people, and one can freely change their mode. There was a base limit of how many farmers was needed and the max pop ceiling was around 22-26k so it wasn't that micro intensive. In Victoria 2, the pops are simulated, so how they demote or promote isn't necessarily something you can change at will by using a slider. The 4x game figures are designed to be simplistic, because it's part of the GUI. They expect you to click on it like every 1 to 5 to 10 turns.

As a preference, having played both kinds, Paradox's real time pause with simulation and some sand box elements, but not having roguelike qualities, feels more interesting. It's a better balance of macro with micro management. Although I also thought Master of Orion 3 was great as a war simulator.
 
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I'm not averse to "pop" systems, but having just finished a Victoria II game where I somehow managed to enhance population growth relatively early on, only to see my game grind to a really boring pace (with a new rig, BTW), I'd personally be wary of anything but the most simplified representations.
 

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I'd like real population numbers and I'd like to see population being an interesting game mechanic. E.g. in GalCiv, your population can grow at a totally unrealistic rate. It's far more interesting if population is a rare resource - that even if you can expand & colonize quickly, your population won't grow so quickly and you'd end up with sparsely populated planets. IRL, I imagine that if us humans ever reach a "space empire" age, we will be very technologically advanced and rich, and the human population might actually not be growing anymore. That doesn't mean colonization and expansion can't happen, it just means that finding the population to do so, and effectively managing where you send your limited number of people, and making sure they are safe (wouldn't want to lose all those people on that colony ship!) could be an additional challenge.
 
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  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
You're still thinking exactly like a human. There is no reasons for the catterpillars to noot have a fundamental role in this butterfly's society, as well as the coocoon. How would you handle the class system in an hive-mind type of society? How would you handle it in a society that is not based on money.
Your reasonning is flawed because you assume every alien species would think the same as humans, but it's highly unlikely. I think it will only be divided by race and ethos, makes a lot more sense since social classes are a Mankind specific concept
A Vick2 style system could still handle your butterflies example if it took the right level of abstraction. Say it just called it e.g. "High Class", "Middle Class", Low Class", or even "Caste A", "Caste B", "Caste C", and then leave it to the player to decide whether the categories represent economic class, social function, phenotype, adulthood, gender, favourite colour, whatever.

I agree it still throws up some awkwardness, especially with e.g. classless societies of some type, but they're not necessarily insurmountable (e.g. having the classes' properties depend on e.g. race or government characteristics, or even randomising them) - just a question of how much trouble you think it's worth as a feature.