Will playing 'tall' be a viable option?

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Tim_Ward

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The problem with placing limitations on factions' ability to expand territorially is that it results in each player playing in their own private sandbox. It's already a problem in 4x games that games can be effectively decided without the players having had much real interaction with each other. This would only make it worse.

I agree; I don't like games that do it that way. Not only because of what you said; I just don't like games that put a lot of limitations on what you can do. It leads to fewer decisions for the player to make which is ultimately a less interesting experience.
 
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Aleks S. I

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I've always been frustrated by not being able to play tall empires in games, since most games end in wide empires becoming tall by the endgame. The issue with the usual "slap penalties on the wide empire" solution is that it forces both empires to play the same. Plus the penalties can never be drastic enough to maintain total balance. The way I see it, a tall empire should almost be playing a different game than a wide one. If you're tall your empire should never be able to match the wide empire in raw power. However, having well-developed defensive networks around all your systems (space stations, minefields, planetary and asteroid-based defenses) acting as a sort of "force multiplier" for your fleets in your territory could allow a small, advanced empire able to defend itself. Also, think of the logistical nightmare that is a large empire. If you're able to break their initial attack, small surgical strikes on important centers could force the large empire to begin unraveling. Given that the game will have a population system, I can't imagine a large empire would be very stable, and hopefully a string of setbacks and defeats would amplify any pre-existing tensions. Overall, I'd expect a well prepared tall empire to have the upper hand if they able to survive the initial attack. Economically, on the other hand, the large empire has an advantage, as they could potentially be self-sufficient and they have a much higher production potential. The tall empire likely has to rely on external trade to have sufficient resources to remain competitive.

Personally I would think that would create an interesting balance. Wide empires are able to field massive fleets but are vulnerable to supply issues and having internal politics sabotage their war effort. Tall empires are more stable and have an advantage when their fleets are supported by in-system defenses, but can be weakened by isolating them from any outside supply of resources.
 
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MWSampson

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Vicky II had awesome tall play. Wars were expensive enough that unless you /needed/ the territory you didn't fight for it.
I sometimes has full play throughs with just one or two wars that weren't due to alliances!
 
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bitmapmedivh

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There are two ways of getting round this; to include limitations on expansion in the same way there are limitations on population grow of your nodes; an example would be Civilisations beloved "corruption" system or perhaps you introduce a global population limit (which you can increase with tech, natch) which sets a population limit across the faction. In SMAC terms it might say that your faction can have 26 population, either in one base or in 26 separate bases.

The other option is simply to do away with population limits entirely, allow nodes to grow indefinitely. In Stellaris terms, allow planets to become ecumenopolis with billions or trillions of people on them.

Space games have another option which to my knowledge no one has really done anything with so far; artificial habitats. Solar systems are large and empty enough that you could fill them with very large numbers of O'Niell cylinders, Banks orbitals, Halos. Living space would not be a concern; this would give you a real choice of whether or not to spread your population out amongst dozens of star systems or keep it concentrated in just a handful; expansion would be a choice between colonizing and terraforming new worlds in other systems or constructing a new Ring in your home systems.

* this is starting to sound like some kind of folksy proverb or morally instructive tale. "There were three brothers, one went wide, the other tall, and the third one killed a wolf for some reason, then their houses fell down..."

I hope Paradox doesn't have a hardcoded pop limit on planets. Having a population growth that is unsustainable is itself a reason to expand, and for Tall Empires it's gives them the ability to, as you said, have planetary populations in the 10's of billions if enough as long as enough off-world resources are funneled back to that world.

I've always been frustrated by not being able to play tall empires in games, since most games end in wide empires becoming tall by the endgame. The issue with the usual "slap penalties on the wide empire" solution is that it forces both empires to play the same. Plus the penalties can never be drastic enough to maintain total balance. The way I see it, a tall empire should almost be playing a different game than a wide one. If you're tall your empire should never be able to match the wide empire in raw power. However, having well-developed defensive networks around all your systems (space stations, minefields, planetary and asteroid-based defenses) acting as a sort of "force multiplier" for your fleets in your territory could allow a small, advanced empire able to defend itself. Also, think of the logistical nightmare that is a large empire. If you're able to break their initial attack, small surgical strikes on important centers could force the large empire to begin unraveling. Given that the game will have a population system, I can't imagine a large empire would be very stable, and hopefully a string of setbacks and defeats would amplify any pre-existing tensions. Overall, I'd expect a well prepared tall empire to have the upper hand if they able to survive the initial attack. Economically, on the other hand, the large empire has an advantage, as they could potentially be self-sufficient and they have a much higher production potential. The tall empire likely has to rely on external trade to have sufficient resources to remain competitive.

Personally I would think that would create an interesting balance. Wide empires are able to field massive fleets but are vulnerable to supply issues and having internal politics sabotage their war effort. Tall empires are more stable and have an advantage when their fleets are supported by in-system defenses, but can be weakened by isolating them from any outside supply of resources.

Yes, this is the way I see it. And if the POP system of Stellaris is as moddable as Vicky2's one can really create a system where the population of the fringe worlds in a wide empire starts to become more of a liability for the empire.
 
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SharpFish

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Well I'd be cautiously optimistic; there are design elements in other PDS games that illustrate an awareness of this concern. Vicky has been mentioned, although I'm not familiar with it, but certainly in earlier versions of EU, there was an interesting dynamic that presented a conflict between turning income into here-and-now spending, for the purposes say of maintaining great armies, or investing in tech instead, in the hopes of having a qualitative difference.

Obviously, I don;t know what they will do, but I'd be surprised if we don't see some element of this conflict appearing.
 
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Finnway

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The real question whether "Tall" and "Wide" empires will both be fun to play. ;)
 
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Finnway

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^^ Not to mention the addition of the 4th dimension - time - breaks our conventional understanding of "space." In that sense, there really should be "relative" empire strategies too :D
 
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Safehold

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Engineering a solar system into one giant 3d fortress with shields and doomsday beam weapons could be interesting. Use the sun, focus all its energies using a gravity distortion lens, start carving into a planet, make it hollow, there's your super planet pop. Also good for spying on enemies and burning down fleets.
 

RoboticManiac

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Going off of what we currently know, I think it's actually a safe bet that tall empires will be perfectly viable.

Your civilisation is made up of pops. (We can assume) Pops grow at the same rate no matter where they are, assuming the two you're comparing are living in similar standards. So you can now 'split' your pop of 1000 between either one planet, or two. Two planets may mean that you have access to more resources, but you leave yourself open to larger divergences in ideology between the two worlds over time. Meanwhile on one planet you will likely have less resources, but retain a more cohesive population. Of course I'm speaking out of pure speculation, and at that I'm vastly oversimplifying, but that spirit and general thought remains.

Speaking from experience with Victoria 2, which is our closest example to the game, and Dev comments, Stellaris is about the people. Their ideologies, their hopes, dreams and fears. Not so much about gallivanting across the galaxy randomly conquering and colonising faceless planets only worrying about their 'production' values. Think of Star Wars' and Star Trek's political intrigues and cultures.
 

noblehunter

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I think it would be ideal for tall vs wide to be a matter of circumstance. Certain set ups or astrographies lend themselves to one strategy or another. Have a lot of big planets with nice biospheres nearby? Wide seems like a good choice. Have a giant wormhole junction in your home system? Tall will let you make the most of it. One shouldn't always be better than the other or the only plausible alternative but one can make more sense than the other.
 
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Redwallzyl

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how about just a huge amount of mega projects for expansion? I'm picturing planets with subterranean complexes surrounded in giant space structures and orbited by artificial moons and stations. Ringworlds and Dyson clouds. gas giant cloud city's and entire artificial planets surrounded by there own orbitals! just have them require tons or resource extraction and investment both specialized scientific and monetary taking away from a more general adaptive and scatted path. a system like that would be immensely rich and powerful with massive shipyards and defensive capabilities. huge mining projects that strip systems of mineral resources could make an extraction play style quite interesting.
 
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jackalope81

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Federations will probably help Tall play since a bunch of single system species could form a federation and defend against colonizers. You could also take an approach of instead of colonizing going around and raising non space flight species up into your empire or federation.

A big issue is how pop growth is done and how quickly they migrate and how much pops affect your production and income. Many games have colonies grow into the size of the home world in under 100 years which is why wide play is so popular. If growth isn't so explosive wide would be diplomatic rather than colony spam.
 
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panther29

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Why would you want to say in your home system. The motto is that space is full of wonders. The whole point of the game is to explore those wonders and sitting on one planet wouldn't cut it. It will also probably be insanely boring just to sit on one planet.
 
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TheDungen

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Well, the way I see it I would like to be able to play an empire that is all about the homeworld, a la Protoss in Starcraft. Colonies outside the home system are purely for resource extraction or supply depots, not settler colonies. An informal empire, if you will. Kinda like playing Venice, the Hansa or Genoa in EUIV and only seeking to establish yourself in all trade nodes or only conquering coastal centers of trade.
Or the Turians in mass effect. But how does the hansa fit into this? They were basically a federation, and they had no one home, sure an administrative centre but no real centre.

I have a friend who always complains about me founding city after city in civilisation, when to me that is what the game is all about.

I guess it's just personal preference, but a problem I have with tall empires being viable is that it forces gamedesign to implement prohibitive drawbacks for wide empires (which would otherwise always be superior). Some make sense (like a larger potential for local unrest and revolts) but others (like diminishing returns) do not.
It is hard to do right
If you look at human history the trend is that tall nations are doing better and better compared to their wide counterparts. If wide empires would be superior in a game set in the future then it means the game fails to recognize the problems they face.

Really don't know. Sure, it would be great to have additional option, but both in the 4x games and the grand strategy i didn't really seen any good "tall" empire possibility.
- We can't really call most small states "tall", their are just that, small and weak, once the "wide" empire wants their stuff, they are toast.
- "Tall" as opposite to "wide" suggest kind of equality or at least way to resist on the political, social and military planes, so that the quantity don't turn into quality. And this is hard to achieve, what i saw to this point were either artificial buffs or inintial technological supremacy combined with barrier to expansion. But the buffs are not fun and usually unrealistic, and once the "wide" close the technological gap the "tall" are falling hard. Especially when there are no specific victory conditions.
- There is always peace or federations options. Which i never saw implemented really good in 4x. Other empires are either weaker, and thus potentially prey, or equal, and that means "rivals" or stronger, and thus they treat you as prey. I've never even really saw good diplomacy in any 4x (with one possible exception of Beyond Earth expansion, where the deals are actually useful, but the diplomacy itself is still crap), the AI always seem oblivious to reality, either being totally passive or recklessly aggressive calling early wars for the lulz.
Again tall empires have in the last half a millenia been much more sucessful than their wide counterparts. The neatherlands, Prussia, and the US and early UK. Compared to the french, austrians spanish and late uk (it should be noted that while the UK is strong when they are wide, their strenght is because the were tall and they basically spend that strenght on becomming wide, eventually leaving room for tall USA to usurp their poisition of global dominance.

Trouble is, there's a finite amount of space to expand into. Eventually the wide players run out of room to expand and start going tall as well. And Wide + Tall > Tall.
If the game hopes to be at all realistic then you never should run out of space. If you run out of space then the game is too small. Sure you may meet the borders of other empires but never all of them, and even they you'll be as much competing for who get to colonise stuff that seems valuable to you both than actually taking land from each other (unless youre a warlike species that like the idea of conquest, but there should be room for a healthy long term rivalry between two relativly peaceful empires too). This isn't civ or EU where the world has a finite amoutn of land area the universe is infitinite and while the game itself cannot represent that it can be large enough compared to it's colonial speed that you'll never run out of places to explore and expand. The limiter for colonial expansion should be that the costs should go up as your overpopulation problems on your core planets start dropping.

Playing tall should be viable but Paradox games have almost always rewarded blobbing heavily so I'm not holding my breath.
True even a period whihc historically favoured the tall like the EU one has wide military expansion as it's best strategy.

I agree; I don't like games that do it that way. Not only because of what you said; I just don't like games that put a lot of limitations on what you can do. It leads to fewer decisions for the player to make which is ultimately a less interesting experience.
I agree that choices are good but that means meaningful choices not like wide and tall in EU4 where wide is the superior strategy in every way. Decisions need to have consequences.

I've always been frustrated by not being able to play tall empires in games, since most games end in wide empires becoming tall by the endgame. The issue with the usual "slap penalties on the wide empire" solution is that it forces both empires to play the same. Plus the penalties can never be drastic enough to maintain total balance. The way I see it, a tall empire should almost be playing a different game than a wide one. If you're tall your empire should never be able to match the wide empire in raw power. However, having well-developed defensive networks around all your systems (space stations, minefields, planetary and asteroid-based defenses) acting as a sort of "force multiplier" for your fleets in your territory could allow a small, advanced empire able to defend itself. Also, think of the logistical nightmare that is a large empire. If you're able to break their initial attack, small surgical strikes on important centers could force the large empire to begin unraveling. Given that the game will have a population system, I can't imagine a large empire would be very stable, and hopefully a string of setbacks and defeats would amplify any pre-existing tensions. Overall, I'd expect a well prepared tall empire to have the upper hand if they able to survive the initial attack. Economically, on the other hand, the large empire has an advantage, as they could potentially be self-sufficient and they have a much higher production potential. The tall empire likely has to rely on external trade to have sufficient resources to remain competitive.

Personally I would think that would create an interesting balance. Wide empires are able to field massive fleets but are vulnerable to supply issues and having internal politics sabotage their war effort. Tall empires are more stable and have an advantage when their fleets are supported by in-system defenses, but can be weakened by isolating them from any outside supply of resources.
I had some ideas about a much more malleable system when the game was first announced. where when you expanded you'd eventually start losing world to independence movements (not you might, you would) who would branch of and create their own empires. Over time none of the empires from the begining would be left (perhaps by every time a faction declares independecne the player gets the choice which of the two faction he want to continue on as) except perhaps a few who played very tall. This coupled with every planet having several initial empires on them would mean an inversion of the one empire once species trope.

Vicky II had awesome tall play. Wars were expensive enough that unless you /needed/ the territory you didn't fight for it.
I sometimes has full play throughs with just one or two wars that weren't due to alliances!
Vicky2 was nice but had too few mechanics for peaceful expansion (aside from the obvious form italy and form germany descisions). I missed the option to found something like the EU 200 eyars early. To get people to join me not on swordpoint but because they wanted a part of my wealth and prosperity.

Well I'd be cautiously optimistic; there are design elements in other PDS games that illustrate an awareness of this concern. Vicky has been mentioned, although I'm not familiar with it, but certainly in earlier versions of EU, there was an interesting dynamic that presented a conflict between turning income into here-and-now spending, for the purposes say of maintaining great armies, or investing in tech instead, in the hopes of having a qualitative difference.

Obviously, I don;t know what they will do, but I'd be surprised if we don't see some element of this conflict appearing.
Yet still even EU4 where the tall empires were the clear winners of the period they favour wide.

^^ Not to mention the addition of the 4th dimension - time - breaks our conventional understanding of "space." In that sense, there really should be "relative" empire strategies too :D
You might want to start with the third dimension; depth. What would a deep empire play like?
 
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Finnway

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You might want to start with the third dimension; depth. What would a deep empire play like?
What's the point? Why not skip the 3rd AND 4th dimension and go straight to the 5th dimension - Love? :D
 

Safehold

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Love would be closer to the 11th dimension.

Why would you want to say in your home system. The motto is that space is full of wonders. The whole point of the game is to explore those wonders and sitting on one planet wouldn't cut it. It will also probably be insanely boring just to sit on one planet.

There should be some additional content for even starting home systems, as each planet may have an anomaly but those are layered using technology and eras. Also "species backstory" would have to be centered on the homeplanet itself or in the same system. That in itself wouldn't create enough content or balance for a dense power, that's where macro stellar engineering using the resources of the solar system.

A lot of content in this colonization space games has to do with real estate. Players just focus on systems and places with prime real estate, because logistically if they can take that first, their economy and military goes up. A trick to technology is that it can increase a race's home system's value to a different order. It would be like an island nation like Japan or Britain, were by having solid naval tech and industry, they can secure an easily defended base to launch their other expansions from. But Earth's history only had barriers to entry for certain places, whereas space tech can do something much stranger and more powerful.
 

TheDungen

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What's the point? Why not skip the 3rd AND 4th dimension and go straight to the 5th dimension - Love? :D
Well love is a jsut achemical reaction very much on the first four dimensions. As for the dimensions being 1-4 that's not really true. We just like thinking about them that way. Hence there is not one specific 5th dimension any dimension besides our normal four can be considered the 5th dimension.
 

aitaituo

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If you look at human history the trend is that tall nations are doing better and better compared to their wide counterparts. If wide empires would be superior in a game set in the future then it means the game fails to recognize the problems they face.

Again tall empires have in the last half a millenia been much more sucessful than their wide counterparts. The neatherlands, Prussia, and the US and early UK. Compared to the french, austrians spanish and late uk (it should be noted that while the UK is strong when they are wide, their strenght is because the were tall and they basically spend that strenght on becomming wide, eventually leaving room for tall USA to usurp their poisition of global dominance.

On the face of it, this seems like an obviously true assertion, given the great divergence that reshaped geopolitics in the last half millennium. But the more I think about it, the less sure I am of it or at least the less sure I am that the tall vs wide dichotomy can be applied to the real world. Take France and the Netherlands. You note them as both tall and they were both, in terms of administrative, economic, and military policies, certainly doing the same or similar things. But I think it can be argued that France was wide in comparison to other tall European states and by the time of the Franco-Prussian War, they were soundly defeated by a state less than half their size.

Part of the problem, I think, is that government policy of economic development is a fairly recent innovation. Let's compare Tokugawa Japan and Qing China as another pair of countries that were using similar policies at the same time, but one was clearly wide and the other clearly tall by 1900. Both used, for example, mutual responsibility taxation sytems, central government inspectors to investigate corruption, mostly hands off domestic trade policies, severely restrictive foreign trade policies, and nearly full autonomy in local administrations. Both even responded to the Unequal Treaties in a similar way, up until the Meiji Restoration.

Yet well before 1900 and despite any concerted government policy to that end, Japan had a literacy rate 10 times higher than China (on par with some contemporary European countries, which is amazing when you consider the relative complexity of Japanese writing), double the effective tax rate (or more, Qing records are notoriously unreliable), and urbanization that left the least developed region of Japan as urbanized as the most developed provinces of China. Again, this is despite extremely similar government policies which can be summarized respectively as public-sponsorship for education of the literati/samurai classes while relying on private interests for everyone else; reliance on mutual responsibility groups for tax collection with intermittent inspections from the higher government; and a lack of policy or interference in the movement of peasants to the cities.

The difference it seems is less in the empires themselves than in geo-economic factors happening by themselves and in an apparent geographical or demographic constraint on administrative efficiency. It's not that the wide polities pursued a goal of width, but that they found themselves constrained by their size, nor is it that the tall polities tried to be tall, but that they were more able to adapt to the wave of (pre-)industrialization.

So what changed when governments began to take an active role in shaping their nations' economies? Everyone went tall, because at the end of the day, increasing GDP per capita or per acre increases absolute GDP and conquering more people or acreage is difficult. Looking at the nations that did try to acquire more territory in the 20th Century, you will find that the Soviet Union, the US, Nazi Germany, Communist China, Imperial Japan, and all or most of the smaller aggressors as well all tried to get taller at the same time they were getting wider. At the same time, advances in information technology allowed large countries like the US to endure the bureaucratic weight of trying to administer a rapidly growing population in the hundreds of millions just as well as smaller countries like Germany that would have had a proportional pre-industrial advantage. Perhaps the US and Germany could be called equally successful today despite the former's size.

If this can be generalized to FTL polities, then there is little reason to think they will focus on wide or tall instead of both simultaneously. The geometry of space combat also means that the fundamental limit of political strength, the optimal number of soldiers you can fit in on a battlefield, will be so large that a tallish empire would have to be quite huge itself before the wideish empire would be unable to outnumber them on any particular battlefield. I'll refrain from speculating on the implications of asymmetrical warfare in FTL polities due to holy wall of text, Batman.
 
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