Will liberal economies remain the worst?

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danmax67

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Jun 11, 2017
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A major issue I took with Victoria 2 was how utterly and entirely horrific it was to maintain a liberal economy. Laissez-faire economics would more often than not lead one's industry to utter ruin, and sink the economy entirely. The player is forced to just stop all interaction whatsoever with the economy until they can somehow manage to get the reactionaries or conservatives back, and simply wait and watch as capitalists build factories in whichever province they hit on their dartboard.


The worst part, though? Whenever one does manage to crawl out of that ever sinking hole that is economic liberalism, thousands of people suddenly rise up in revolt against the mere possibility of a functioning economy. This means that players are bogged down fighting amnesiacs who forgot how the Liberals plunged us into a depression and shattered our economy a mere ten minutes beforehand.

So, will there be changes to this system? Will Laissez-Faire economics be made viable, or at the very least will utter economic ruin dissuade people from supporting the liberals?
 
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A major issue I took with Victoria 2 was how utterly and entirely horrific it was to maintain a liberal economy. Laissez-faire economics would more often than not lead one's industry to utter ruin, and sink the economy entirely. The player is forced to just stop all interaction whatsoever with the economy until they can somehow manage to get the reactionaries or conservatives back, and simply wait and watch as capitalists build factories in whichever province they hit on their dartboard.


The worst part, though? Whenever one does manage to crawl out of that ever sinking hole that is economic liberalism, thousands of people suddenly rise up in revolt against the mere possibility of a functioning economy. This means that players are bogged down fighting amnesiacs who forgot how the Liberals plunged us into a depression and shattered our economy a mere ten minutes beforehand.

So, will there be changes to this system? Will Laissez-Faire economics be made viable, or at the very least will utter economic ruin dissuade people from supporting the liberals?
Laissez-faire was great for already developed industry in Vic2. Late game i normally just let capitalist handle economy, so i could fully focus on making world-wide rubber monopoly. Only exeption is when there was new factory type was researched, then i switch to state-cap, build those new factory in desireable places, and then put liberals back in charge. On other hand, i fully agree what free market was terrible in Vic2 for countries with undeveloped industry.
 
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I suspect the big investment pool will be very, very useful.
In general, I don't quite understand what people mean by laissez fair in relation to time.

But in terms of the game concept, it will actually be the case that the economy will be competitive with a capitalist investment pool. Yes, the player will not be able to close the factories manually. But he will be able to build other factories with the investment pool.
 
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It was collapsing because your directed economy was "inefficient".
I have played a few games while being full liberals, increasing capitalists population was enough to get me first in economy, they had an insane capacity in investment as long as you took care of them.
 
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I am happy there are changes being made to the system. It's an interesting difference between planned tariff heavy gameplay vs more automated global liberal economy, but locking the player out of game mechanics is hardly a good idea. It also led to a weird mix of politics and economy; you need liberals to pass reforms but they might be completely useless at actually running the country, because it just doesn't have enough capitalists and has no factories. It's probably one of the most important problems of Vic2 that the sequel tackles.
 
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In vic2 LF was good in late game sicnce:
You already invested in sphere countries for that relation bonus
You built proper chain of production
You finally collected railroad bonus and technology invention, so your factories explode with efficiency
There is finally enough clerks/clergy/capitalist to make it work.
In fact late game there is so much cash that you dont even need full taxation, so LF does not limit your tax decision.

Also having capitalists do upgrades and railroads is great and cuts micro.

What i want:
Building production chains was actually fun and it is some gameplay. Also sphering Persia/Egypt for that bwool supply and textile industry, that was some gameplay.
 
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Players build inefficient economies -> they lose them money->people are poor from all the subsidizing dumping industrial products into ocean-> people elect LF party -> inefficient economy collapses without subsidies.

Players : surprised faces. Damn liberals.

It's actually super annoying that paradox just allows that get out of jail free card for everyone.

A major issue I took with Victoria 2 was how utterly and entirely horrific it was to maintain a liberal economy. Laissez-faire economics would more often than not lead one's industry to utter ruin, and sink the economy entirely. The player is forced to just stop all interaction whatsoever with the economy until they can somehow manage to get the reactionaries or conservatives back, and simply wait and watch as capitalists build factories in whichever province they hit on their dartboard.


The worst part, though? Whenever one does manage to crawl out of that ever sinking hole that is economic liberalism, thousands of people suddenly rise up in revolt against the mere possibility of a functioning economy. This means that players are bogged down fighting amnesiacs who forgot how the Liberals plunged us into a depression and shattered our economy a mere ten minutes beforehand.

So, will there be changes to this system? Will Laissez-Faire economics be made viable, or at the very least will utter economic ruin dissuade people from supporting the liberals?
Research political branch and get socialist, so people can support some non-reactionary interventionism.
Eheh, you must have missed all the "players should not control the investment pool" psychodrama
Yes, players should not directly control investment fund, just because.
 
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Players build inefficient economies -> they lose them money->people are poor from all the subsidizing dumping industrial products into ocean-> people elect LF party -> inefficient economy collapses without subsidies.

Players : surprised faces. Damn liberals.
Right. Set up a couple of basic industries to produce essential intermediate goods (cement, cloth, lumber, glass, steel), and a couple of industries for products which are in demand that actually use those intermediate goods (clothing, liquor, furniture, machine tools, and then Luxury clothes and furniture), prioritizing provinces where the raw materials are produced and the labor pool is decent. The economy grows exponentially, and I expand the factories as they near full employment.....then the liberals win an election. The capitalists build EIGHT new ammunition factories (there's 1 already), and all 9 fail and close within 2 years because of the massive overproduction and consequent price collapse. The world economy suffers a minor hiccup as things readjust, and my cloth factory closes, followed by my regular clothes and luxury clothes factories as a result of the shortage of cloth due to the cloth factory failure. Now I've suddenly got tens of thousands of unemployed Craftsmen, and the capitalists build more ammunition factories (soon to fail and close) in the regions which don't have one already. If I could have subsidized that cloth factory for the 2-3 months of the crisis, it all would have been fine. Instead, I've got massive unemployment and angry workers demanding free press, as if that makes sense.

Granted, if you're subsidizing industries in the long term, you're either doing something very wrong, or else propping up some specific vital weak link in the production chain for the sake of a host of other factories.

As said by other posters, in the first half of the campaign, you practically have to switch to Intervention or state capitalism every couple of decades to fix the mess, but after you reach some "critical mass", you can turn it over to L-F and it will weather almost all of those occasional dips.

What I'm seeing for V3 looks a lot more promising.
 
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Right. Set up a couple of basic industries to produce essential intermediate goods (cement, cloth, lumber, glass, steel), and a couple of industries for products which are in demand that actually use those intermediate goods (clothing, liquor, furniture, machine tools, and then Luxury clothes and furniture), prioritizing provinces where the raw materials are produced and the labor pool is decent. The economy grows exponentially, and I expand the factories as they near full employment.....then the liberals win an election. The capitalists build EIGHT new ammunition factories (there's 1 already), and all 9 fail and close within 2 years because of the massive overproduction and consequent price collapse. The world economy suffers a minor hiccup as things readjust, and my cloth factory closes, followed by my regular clothes and luxury clothes factories as a result of the shortage of cloth due to the cloth factory failure. Now I've suddenly got tens of thousands of unemployed Craftsmen, and the capitalists build more ammunition factories (soon to fail and close) in the regions which don't have one already. If I could have subsidized that cloth factory for the 2-3 months of the crisis, it all would have been fine. Instead, I've got massive unemployment and angry workers demanding free press, as if that makes sense.

Granted, if you're subsidizing industries in the long term, you're either doing something very wrong, or else propping up some specific vital weak link in the production chain for the sake of a host of other factories.

As said by other posters, in the first half of the campaign, you practically have to switch to Intervention or state capitalism every couple of decades to fix the mess, but after you reach some "critical mass", you can turn it over to L-F and it will weather almost all of those occasional dips.

What I'm seeing for V3 looks a lot more promising.
Well, there were obvious flaws in V2 economy, that should be adjusted, in particular the build only one level of factory, at once system, and probably some other weak links, but I can`t see what is your problem, since IRL economy suffers crisis every 10 or so years, so kinda working as expected.

Then, I`m fine with occasionally having to intervene, as that is also pretty historical, and those interventions had a cost. You had to elect or appoint a necessary party (a great argument for keeping those pesky monarchs in place, or in some mods, not granting compete reforms, even if it pisses off population), paying militancy cost or manipulating needed party into power, and then having to suffer some minority pops getting militancy, because most state capitalist parties have less then liberal other policy positions.

Also LF more or less required you to research "suboptimal" techs, such as taxation, and factory efficiency, which, you might wanted to skip, in favor of something, which, is fine, as long as you can get in party that will at least allow you high taxes and subsidies, which, again, had a cost.
You could also research socialists and get that party in power.

V3 could have implemented various ways for LF governments to encourage industries, as a default, but kept capitlists in charge, in LF.

Victoria 3, however just wants to give your government power of economical intervention, for free, at no consequences, as opposed to player having to manipulate national elections or keep government that allows party switching, eating up dissent penalty, if needed.

As for reforms, yes, the way they were laid out in V2 made little sense, as little sense did initial set of party policies made sense, so why not improve them? :eek:
 
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Victoria 3, however just wants to give your government power of economical intervention, for free, at no consequences, as opposed to player having to manipulate national elections or keep government that allows party switching, eating up dissent penalty, if needed.
Oh wow, that is just particularly unfortunate. I always did enjoy having entirely different playstyles depending upon government, so it's a shame they'll be removing that.
 
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Oh wow, that is just particularly unfortunate. I always did enjoy having entirely different playstyles depending upon government, so it's a shame they'll be removing that.
Don't listen to them, they is just wrong. They are extrapolating from little information and deliberately ignoring a ton of what the devs have said. For example, the devs have confirmed time and time again, that governments should and do feel different to play. Furthermore, they, and many others, conflate "players will have control" with "players will be able to do whatever with no consequences" which is just literally wrong as the devs have said multiple times.
 
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Don't listen to them, they is just wrong. They are extrapolating from little information and deliberately ignoring a ton of what the devs have said. For example, the devs have confirmed time and time again, that governments should and do feel different to play. Furthermore, they, and many others, conflate "players will have control" with "players will be able to do whatever with no consequences" which is just literally wrong as the devs have said multiple times.

Until the game releases (or, at least, we see a dev diary covering this in detail), those are just words. Right now it looks like there won't be capi AI, at least at game release, which would be big step backwards from Vicky 2.
 
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Right now it looks like there won't be capi AI, at least at game release, which would be big step backwards from Vicky 2.
It's amazing how much ire has been provoked by removing Vicky 2's most hated feature.
 
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