Pops don't have a culture though or do they? A location just says "primary culture: xyz" and I think that's that.
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If I as the player would culture convert every province with Dutch culture or even just some of them (In whole or in part), I would be purposely destroying this group, which would probably fit the definition of genocide as we have it in the modern day.
HOI4 has said many times they don't have any references to the holocaust because it would either be just spamming the player with sad events they cant do anything about, or it would require the player to have actual input into these events, which obviously would mean any normal person would just never start any of it, and allowing certain people to willfully decide to commit these acts would obviously be extremely problematic.
The EU timeline is more divorced from the modern day, and its gameplay touches more upon culture and ethnicity than HOI, so it would make sense to have these things in the game, as they did happen in history.
But I agree the optics could be terrible.
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As a person from the Balkans i dont see anything wrong with it.
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You can say it's more divorced but if someone from the Balkans decides to genocide every non-their-own pop in former Yugoslavia? If someone from the Caucasus or Turkey or Russia decides to genocide every not-their-own pop in the region? Heck, since the game has minorities you could have people literally form Germany and re-enact the holocaust a couple hundred years early and this time to completion.
I'll give it to you that most people can gloss over and not mind the genocide of natives for their colonies even if I find it disturbing but I think a lot more people would change their minds if they hear "this game lets you commit the holocaust" and seeing a gif of someone clicking a button which makes Jewish pops disappear which EU4's lack of minority representation wouldn't allow you to do
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Its gonna be a difficult thing to manage indeed, where does the line between player freedom and preventing horrible people from living out horrible fantasies lie, but at the same time you also want to acknowledge that these things did happen and are a part of almost every nations histories, but without making a genocide simulator as that is something no sane person wants to work on/buy.
I wish the dev team good luck and it'll be interesting to see how they manage it.
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I made a similar argument in the slavery thread. If the game is to simulate history, and history included genocides, then the game should be able to model them. If the game is to avoid bad publicity for being a genocide promoting game, and some players not wanting to play because the genocide stuff makes them feel bad, then the player should not be forced to commit genocides, but there should always be other options. And among those options, genocides should not be an easy way to victory. Also, even if the game mechanics would allow it, it would be very idiotic to make achievements for committing genocides, eg "Early Endlösung".
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It's they choice to do so? Like, it's all fantasy, it's all not real, it's all a game. I don't mind if people commit any possible attrocity as long as it stay in internet or they PC, or book. I would encourage it even, if that would mean they Do Not try to commit it in real life and be content in living in they made up fantasy.
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Why do we care what random normies and clickbait sites will care? It is an important aspect of history, this is a simulative historical GSG. Throw it in, just don't be gross or insensitive
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The problem here being that historically especially in the new world, genocide was often the "easy way to victory", putting mechanics in the game but making them bad options on purpose presents the following problems:
- It can seem like the game is lecturing the player which people generally dislike.
- Its not always true to the actual history, and can even be disrespectful to some people that way by making it seem like those acts could only be taken by evil monsters when in reality there was usually reasons for these things (reasons reprehensible to us today), Britain did not colonize and suppress the Irish people simply because they where evil bastards who hated the Irish (Some did though) but to create a loyal protestant base to help keep their grip on the island, and who owe it to those victims to recon with some of the factors that are still with us today EG: capitalism being a driving factor for chattel slavery, religion being a driver for many atrocities, the economic incentives for imperialism etc.
- Making a mechanic that you kind of want people not to use is a waste of effort.
- If it is a "bad" decision to make in game, than the only people who will choose to do it are exactly those that you wouldn't want to do so because their motivations are external to the game.
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Please, define the line for gross or insensitive in such a manner that people uniformly agree on. And once you're done with that sissyphean task, I have a boulder you can roll up a hill.
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It is a game, but also a game taking place on earth, in our real history, with groups that historically suffered abuse and groups that still exist, so its not fantasy.
I do think the game should deal with these subjects, but it should make sure it does so with respect to the very real histories this will inevitably cross over with.
Also the groups of people that would choose to do these things in a video game are generally toxic to any community they are a part of, PDX games already have an issue with this and you really don't want to attract more of them.
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Everything which is not happening in real life or already happened, is fantasy, aka fantasia. Made up story. Things that did not happen in reality as they do in game. By your logic as Russian i should go insane mad, every time Germany player capitalute USSR in HOI4, giving history of that war. But in reality i just don't care, no matter how time they do it in game, in reality USSR won, and that all that matter.
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Culture converting should not make a happy noise like in EU4 for example. The game should let you know you are doing a bad thing. I don't know why people are so opposed to this in "Colonialism and Slave Trade V". You guys are like Muslims who will commit all sins but won't eat pork.
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Some of you need a chill pill. Beyond the fact that this would cause a PR nightmare, we're also talking about a game based on reality. Stellaris is on another degree of abstraction, no one identifies with the bird people you decided to kill off, but posting pictures on reddit or whatever korean basketweaving forum you may browse about how you slaughtered a culture that is still alive today would be gross.
And furthermore beyond that, I don't know of any instance of intentional, systemic genocide before the 19th century. There were pogroms, cultural genocide, expulsions and enslavement, but not genocide as the systematic killing of peoples. States did not have the capability or need to do this.
And furthermore beyond that, I don't know of any instance of intentional, systemic genocide before the 19th century. There were pogroms, cultural genocide, expulsions and enslavement, but not genocide as the systematic killing of peoples. States did not have the capability or need to do this.
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Yes. Your ruler will generate based on his skills "Genocide mana". You can spend that mana on a botton that you have on each location. You press it and the whole population of the selected culture is whiped out.
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Things that already happened are history, which is most definitely not fantasy.
The difference is that HOI4 explicitly does not in any way cover interactions between militaries and the civilian world, nor does it cover most atrocities in any way (With a weird exception for the rape of nanking). In HOI4's universe wars are completely "clean", which isn't true to history at all but does seem like a valid way to deal with the horrors of the 30,40s by just not dealing with them in any way at all.
Having pops with cultures that are probably gameplay relevant means that EU V has to deal with these subjects somehow, in a way that is respectful to actual human history. Because these aren't made up stories, they are real things some of which still impact the world today.
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