will hoi4 have counters like hoi3?

[Fulmen]

As an NCO in the FDF (now in reserve) and military history nut, it saddens me to see that there are no real counters in HoI4.

Furthermore, a few of the NATO symbols for land units are incorrect (REC for example).

Since CAV and REC normally use the same symbol, a little R for REC units could be added within the lower right corner of the symbol or counter (this area is often used for extra information like this). Maybe this would be too subtle of an indicator for PDX's taste though.

I'd also like to note that in past HoIs all the naval and air symbols have been incorrect, and therefore will likely be so in HoI4. Personally I'm quite OK with this, but they really should add a hardcore NATO symbols mode with proper counters and proper symbology for all units.

Speaking of the optional displaying of NATO symbols, Eugen's Wargame series does a pretty nice job in this, even if it doesn't go into higher levels of detail (i.e. denoting whether an ATGM team is medium or heavy etc.).

 

[vistuvis]

I've never used sprites for HOI3 and I can't remember exactly why I switched to counters right away. I just recall that the sprites were dark and ugly against the map which made it harder to tell at a glance what was happening for me.

But now HOI4 seems to have the best of both sprites and counters.

 

[safe-keeper]

I feel Podcat explained it nicely here.

Lol. Not buying the game cos you don't like the art style of the counters in the game?
Wow, entitled much? This seems so remarkably pedantic that I can't believe anyone is actually this absurd. It's like not buying EU:4 cos you don;t like the portraits of the advisor

Someone's gotta be the drama-lama.

 

[vfmikey]

I've never used sprites for HOI3 and I can't remember exactly why I switched to counters right away. I just recall that the sprites were dark and ugly against the map which made it harder to tell at a glance what was happening for me.

But now HOI4 seems to have the best of both sprites and counters.

Sprites in HoI3 were extremely ugly and uninformative. There was no telling which unit is which afair. Counters worked better only because sprites were that bad IMHO.

 

[Fulmen]

I feel Podcat explained it nicely here.

They could still do proper counters while keeping the sprites though.

 

[Mourn]

They could still do proper counters while keeping the sprites though.

Did you even read the post linked? Podcat goes into detail about why they can't do exactly that:

A counters only view?!
I established in the above section that out new counters are better in every way as interfaces than the counters from HOI3, so the only reason would be that you don't like to see pretty 3d graphics and feel this is immersion breaking in your games if they dont look like an old boardgame. Since we know there are people who feel this way we still investigated the option of a counter only interface:
- You can either make a 2d overlay like we have currently, so the only difference would be to turn off the 3d models. I am not going to do something I feel adds nothing and just makes the game ugly, but I am sure someone will make a mod that does this.
- The other option is 3d counters that look like 2d, or boardgame chips (sort of what the hoi3 ones were, they were costlier to render than the 3d objects btw). The problem with these is that the shape isnt natural and when placed into a 3d map trying to represent the world will end up clipping into, falling off mountains and lots of other terribleness that is extremely hard to work around. we would also end up having to reimplement all the work we did with the 2d overlay counters in the previous section, but now in 3d. We are still a small core team of 3 programmers and I cant justify spending that much development time just to add a visual choice of the same thing, or we'll end up where hoi3 was with too much stuff, none of it balanced or working quite right.
- I also feel there is a large overlap between this crowd and people who only want a 2d map as well. These people I am sad to say we will never be able to make happy with the release of hoi4. A 2d game is possible to make, but its not a game anyone in the team wants to make, or that has a chance of selling as much as a nicer looking 3d one. If you are in this camp, get together and make a 2d mod. Its definitely possible, but its a lot of work we really cant justify doing if we want to keep making games and not starve on the streets.

I think his detailed explanation deserves more of a response than a one sentence dismissal. I love the counters in HOI3 but from watching the live stream and having read podcat's explanation I have no problem with the approach they are taking. Personally I think the changes they are making from HOI3 to HOI4 are exciting and far outweigh any perceived disadvantage of the game not looking like a boardgame with cardboard counters.

 

[Zaku]

They could still do proper counters while keeping the sprites though.

They could, but they don't want to.

 

[Fulmen]

Did you even read the post linked? Podcat goes into detail about why they can't do exactly that:



I think his detailed explanation deserves more of a response than a one sentence dismissal. I love the counters in HOI3 but from watching the live stream and having read podcat's explanation I have no problem with the approach they are taking. Personally I think the changes they are making from HOI3 to HOI4 are exciting and far outweigh any perceived disadvantage of the game not looking like a boardgame with cardboard counters.

I read his post, you apparently didn't read mine.

I didn't ask for a counters-only mode, but a mode with counters and sprites. Basically what we have now, but with a more detailed and traditional counter-style unit icon.

 

[DazKaz]

I'm looking forward to playing HIO4 but at the moment I feel there has been a version of the game skipped.

The changes are so radical in some of the areas that I loved from the HOI3 experience, that I am not sure I will like them, until I get a chance to spend some time with it...maybe.
I didn't like the sprites in HOI3 as there just wasn't enough information imparted from displaying them compared to the counters.
The most important of that was the green or red line that joined the echelons of command.

So my primary view for the years I played the game was the counters and NATO symbols.
I never once said to myself I don't like them I want to see sprites instead, I really hope that HOI4 will do away with them and have sprites in their place.
I did however say I would like more information on what is under a large stack on mouse over instead of having to click and select each stack individually and the more information that could be crammed onto that large counter the better. I would have also liked an on off hotkey for them, to see the underlying map and the province names, when I needed to.

Something I don't understand from people that are anti NATO symbols because they don't understand them, like Daniel for instance, is how on earth did you play HOI3 without learning them?
Did I miss a feature in HOI3 where you could change the symbol on the counter to a helmet, donkey, or panorama of a mountain?
The sprites never showed up until you were zoomed right in, so even with sprites enabled you were still playing with NATO counters for a large portion of the game.

I also liked the OOB, the leaders for the divisions, and the chain of command. I thought it was an important role playing element, that made me care for the units and formations, and helped with setting up historic scenarios.

There were many, many improvements that I wanted from HOI3 especially with the AI.
What I fear I may be getting with HOI4, is not just improvements, but almost an entirely different game loosely based on the HOI3 I loved.
The problem is I didn't want an entirely different game I wanted a successor that improved on the parts that I liked.
What I fear HOI4 may be on its way to becoming, is not a grand strategy game, but an RTS where a zerg mentality will win the day, over careful planning of the individual Corps, Army's, and Army Groups, and appreciation of the terrain, and the units, that will operate on it.

So as you can see I feel there is a version of the game missing, where I can acclimatise to the huge changes. Especially to the visual core of the game that was its NATO counters.
After all, that's what you spent most of your time looking at when playing the game, so it was probably front and centre, one of its most important features.
No wonder half (?) of the community are voicing concern about its radical new redesign.

If you disagree with me, remember this is just my opinion as a long term HOI3 player, and I have expressed it as best I can, in a few paragraphs, so as not to bore you too much.
I'm not trying to force my opinion on you, or have any illusions what so ever, that it will influence the new HOI4 in any way whatsoever.

I hope I will come to love HOI4 as much as I did HOI3 even with all its flaws.