will hoi4 have counters like hoi3?

[Modestus]

You can really see at a glance whats happening here? Maybe it's because i never got into HOI3 but what i get from this is that the germans are attacking thats it.
I see a stack of counters in the middle with green arrows in every direction and i have no idea which counter is going in what direction.
As compared to the new counters: the old counters do NOT show me the strength% and the ORG% that the new ones DO show me.
The new Counters show a coloured bar indicating under who leads it and to what plan it belongs, the old counters do have the general name on it aswell but I need to read it sideways.
Then there are the added icons inside the counter for what the unit is doing in the new counters, which is not present in the old counters.

From this I would conclude that the new counters give more information at a glance than the old counters ever did.
I do agree that the new counters should/could be made larger to be more readable.

The HOI IV display counter shows you the Strength% and Organisation% of whatever is in a Province at that particular time, it could be a single Infantry Division or the combined Strength and Organisation of 3 Infantry Divisions and it will fluctuate depending on what moves in and out of that Province but your right it does give the player information about the Strength% and Organisation% of their forces within a Province at that moment.


The HOI IV display counters are colour coded to show that within a Province there is a unit that belongs to this or that Army which is nice, I cannot remember what happens if you have 2 units of the same type from two different armies but once again it gives the player information about what is within a Province.


The icons on the display counter show that within a Province a unit is performing a particular action and were added because unless there was a battle or you could see the model you would have no idea if a unit was doing anything, they are a necessary requirement and unless Paradox wanted to be sadists they would have to add an icon of some sort.


I must check to see what happens if two units of the same type within the same Province are performing two different actions.

Edit: It appears to me that a new display counter is created for each different type of action that is performed within the same province.


I used the HOI III screen to help illustrate the fact that the counters in HOI III are replacements for the actual model which means you can show direction , the counters in HOI IV are an addition to the model and give information about the Province but you cannot use them to show direction for that you need to zoom in to see the model.

 

[Modestus]

It is great to see that they have added that purple band onto the mini counter to add more information. One of our complaints was that to get that kind of information we would need to zoom in and decipher the sprite's animation to determine what the unit is doing -- push ups for training, marching for movement, shooting for combat, etc. These icons in the purple band will give us a ton of new information at a glance.

That brings up the big difference between the Hoi3 counter and the HoiIV mini-counter. The counter was a square box icon that was the on map representation of a specific unit. Each unit had its own counter. If more than one unit was in a province, the counters started to stack, and you could tell at a glance how many units were in a province by seeing how high the stack was. In HoiIV, you will not have the option to play with counters. The actual, on map representation of a unit is the sprite, and if more than one unit is in a province they will not stack, but rather if doing nothing, you will see just one sprite. If there are multiple units doing different things, you will see multiple sprites overlapping animations in confusing horribleness.

That is where the mini-counter comes in. Since the sprites do not stack and do not give you an indication of the number units in a province, they added a totally new feature, the mini-counter. It is a new informational tool separate from the counter or the sprite. You could for example imagine the game using both counters and mini-counters instead of sprites and mini-counters. So, the mini-counter is not a replacement for the counter. It is a whole new beast.

It is a new beast, because it does not represent a specific unit, but rather a group of units depending on your level of zoom. While zoomed all the way in, the counter might represent a single unit in a single province. Zoom out a bit and it might merge with other units in neighboring provinces and represent 4 units across 4 provinces. Zoom out further and it might represent 40 units all across your nation.

One of my concerns is how the mini counters will perform when the types of units are dramatically increased by a mod. I am concerned that the interface is designed in such a way that too many units requiring separate mini counters will overload the system. I also don't like the way the mini-counters jump around like Mexican jumping beans at times. I hope they have worked that bug out. I am also now concerned about the new purple informational band. What happens when the mini-counter is representing more than one unit and the units are doing more than one thing? I am sure there is some logical solution that they have worked out that we will soon get used to. It is clear they are putting a great deal of thought into this interface.

All in all, I am very pleased to see that purple band. It means they listened to us and realized that people are going to predominately play the game with the new mini-counter, no matter how hard they try to push the sprites on us.

They may have listened because way back there was no icons on the display counter but even if they never saw a post on this forum it would have become apparent that some means to indicate on the display counter at least what one unit was doing would become a necessity.

 

[DazKaz]

The new counters they have made are great, they just need to be the size the sprites are when zoomed in.
Doing this would allow the NATO symbol, or whatever custom symbol suits you best, to be larger.
You could then use a hot key to quickly switch between sprite and counter view if you wanted the best of both worlds, but I probably would stay in counter view permanently.

One of my biggest gripes about HOI3 was they never had a hot key to turn off all the counters to see the underlying terrain and province names.
I never understood why this was never implemented.
Maybe it required a lot of complicated code?

Unit filter hotkeys would also be a nice addition for people who like to get involved at a lower level of command like me.
One that just shows HQ's on the map, another for mountain units only, armour, garrison, para, etc.

 

[Modestus]

The new counters they have made are great, they just need to be the size the sprites are when zoomed in.
Doing this would allow the NATO symbol, or whatever custom symbol suits you best, to be larger.
You could then use a hot key to quickly switch between sprite and counter view if you wanted the best of both worlds, but I probably would stay in counter view permanently.

One of my biggest gripes about HOI3 was they never had a hot key to turn off all the counters to see the underlying terrain and province names.
I never understood why this was never implemented.
Maybe it required a lot of complicated code?

Unit filter hotkeys would also be a nice addition for people who like to get involved at a lower level of command like me.
One that just shows HQ's on the map, another for mountain units only, armour, garrison, para, etc.

Unlikely to work because Counters in HOI IV are not stackable and you certainly could not make them the size of the Sprite when zoomed in as most provinces would not have the space to deal with multiply Counters.

 

[Rex Ursus]

It is very simple for me. HOI4 will have die-cut counter models or I will not buy it.

 

[xtfoster]

It is very simple for me. HOI4 will have die-cut counter models or I will not buy it.

Statement: Sorry they are going to lose your business (they have been VERY CLEAR about this).
Question: Knowing this, why are you here?

 

[SPIRTO76]

Statement: Sorry they are going to lose your business (they have been VERY CLEAR about this).
Question: Knowing this, why are you here?

He wants his voice to be heard. He is a fan. There are many reasons

 

[xtfoster]

He wants his voice to be heard. He is a fan. There are many reasons

Yes, and they have been heard in the almost 2 years this game has been in development. Heard so vocally that at one point threads like this were being deleted as soon as the moderators found them. Paradox has been very clear for at least the last year: Models (they aren't sprites) are here to stay.

 

[SPIRTO76]

Yes, and they have been heard in the almost 2 years this game has been in development. Heard so vocally that at one point threads like this were being deleted as soon as the moderators found them. Paradox has been very clear for at least the last year: Models (they aren't sprites) are here to stay.

I understand the reason why Paradox is doing what they are doing they have a creative focus and are sticking to it. (which is not a bad thing) The hardcore wargamers want a specific play style when it comes to a game like HoI4. I for one am looking forward to what things the game brings in new to the genre not what has been done before. But you xtfoster, were basically saying that he should vacate the board for sharing a dissenting opinion. Like having his opinion makes him a social pariah. I just don't think that is called for.

 

[xtfoster]

But you xtfoster, were basically saying that he should vacate the board for sharing a dissenting opinion.

No, I am asking why he is here on the forum for a game he has said he won't buy. Not that he shouldn't be able to share his opinion.

 

[SPIRTO76]

No, I am asking why he is here on the forum for a game he has said he won't buy. Not that he shouldn't be able to share his opinion.

Maybe, his love of the previous entries? Who knows he was just expressing the minority discontent.

 

[tommylotto]

I'm buying HoiIV and that gives me the right to bitch until it's perfect.

 

[rjohansen]

I am buying, of course, but I am sceptical. I hope for a DLC or that someone really good can make a mod to fix the game. I love many aspects of the new game, but not all. I guess the game will be better after a few expansions too, and that might be the sole reason why they have taken some good parts out of the game from start.

 

[Zaku]

It's hard to have an arguement about an artistic preference because that's subjective. People should accept the fact that PDS already decided on a style and they are sticking to it. Nato counters don't add anything to the game except style, and they are confusing for many people so they are gone. Nato symbols are in, so the players can have their wargamey feel.

 

[BobbyDylan]

Lol. Not buying the game cos you don't like the art style of the counters in the game?

Wow, entitled much? This seems so remarkably pedantic that I can't believe anyone is actually this absurd. It's like not buying EU:4 cos you don;t like the portraits of the advisor.

Anyway, in my experience with recent PDS games, minor graphical mods like this won't change the checksum. So.... just change it yourself if it bothers you.

 

[Aodhan_]

Nato counters are in don't see why people are still bitchen about this, unless they don't want the rest of us sane (jk) people too use models.

 

[zyphial]

I think a certain joke flew over some people's heads. At least, I hope it was a joke...

Still, cant two birds be killed with one stone? Add a video settings option for scaling the sprite and one for scaling the counter. People who hate sprites can set it to zero (scaling a model to zero is vastly less programmer intensive than circumventing its render altogether) and people who cant see the mini-counter (or want it to replace the sprite) can set it to some large size.

No, it wont be "die-cut" but it's far more than enough of a compromise. TBH, it's really the people who can't see the info due to size that really ought to be served.

 

[Modestus]

I find the a combination of the Sprites and the jumping bean display boxes to be very confusing and some of the animations are just embarrassing to watch, I suspect that when my 10th Panzer Division appears out of my 2nd Cavalry’s backside I will feel less like Manstein reborn and more like H. G. Well’s Doctor Moreau.


It also now looks like there wont be any demo so until someone comes up with a system that is a little better then Doctor Moreau's weird critters and jumping-bean display boxes Barbarossa will just have to wait.

 

[Rommel41]

I guess there is more support for sprites/models because every other Paradox grand-strategy title uses them.

HoI was the only title that made this "sacrifice" for the sake of immersion.

Being as I constantly check on every aspect of every part of my war-machine, I always knew where every unit was moving (often months before they got there), what their strength and organisation was, who the leader was, what the supply situation was, etc. And usually doing this for 100's of units for a decade or more of intense micro. Of course, I'm good at it, so my games can still be too fast. That's when I interject my role-playing.

Now it seems to be about making war as fast as possible with as much info as you can cram on the screen. I enjoyed having to switch between my supply map mode and infrastructure mode. I enjoyed being certain my orders were obeyed and I wouldn't have to save-scum because the AI lost a battle or war. I never asked for an AI to control my armies any more than I asked for little models of tanks and men in place of information.

I understand, however, that this is not a game built for me, it's built for them. I'll let modders fix the mistake (if they even can) and then I'll get back to it.

I already tried Supreme Ruler and I disliked their strategic overlay, the new HoI model seems more like that system.

I also know that those strength "bars" are going to mislead a lot of people when you have fresh units mixed in with devastated units. Are the almost dead units attacking toward us or is it the full-strength ones? Is that entire infantry group at half-strength or is it just one bad division? 13 nation coalition in one province? Only 13 icons to sort through...just for infantry!

They should have kept the counters and simply had a hover-over expandable tool-tip info tree like the new info boxes. Except only show when you hover over a stack. The Tripartite mod for AoD shows every division and it's movement direction, and that's for an old HoI2 build! The opportunities to update counters for a new generation and make them even more informative was passed-up so the boys in the art department would have something to do.

 

[Mannstien]

I gave up on this debate a year so ago, I like counters and the OOB but the former had at least some measure taken to address them being cut, perhaps the latter can be modded in because I don't see them doing any DLC for a proper order of battle.

For my OOBs I'm going to use the generals for tanks, marines, and basically any other expensive and or specialized units while the FM will get the bulk of the infantry along with Garrison units.