Will HOI 4 be shown at GAMESCOM15?

[LordOfWar16]

I'm really curious, how a censored version will look like, since i live in germany.

trust me, you want to get the uncensored version. The german version will be horrible thanks to german laws, germany will have fantasy politicians since nearly all of them are banned and the portraits need to get replaced. I dont know if there is anything else but why buy the censored german version if you can get an uncensored version from outside of germany? Our gouverment looses millions of euros by censoring games since that doesnt prevent people from getting the uncensored version but rather prevent them from buying the german version which means no tax income. Even amazon offers imported uncut versions. Buy the austrian PEGI version and you will get the uncensored version as long as Paradox doesnt cut the german language version in general.

 

[Wulf145]

trust me, you want to get the uncensored version. The german version will be horrible thanks to german laws, germany will have fantasy politicians since nearly all of them are banned and the portraits need to get replaced. I dont know if there is anything else but why buy the censored german version if you can get an uncensored version from outside of germany? Our gouverment looses millions of euros by censoring games since that doesnt prevent people from getting the uncensored version but rather prevent them from buying the german version which means no tax income. Even amazon offers imported uncut versions. Buy the austrian PEGI version and you will get the uncensored version as long as Paradox doesnt cut the german language version in general.

I used to get the uncencered version of the previous iterations of HOI, but since HOI is bound to STEAM - it will depend on how rigid STEAM will region lock it. If they are going to rigidly region lock it there will be no way that you will be able to play any other version with a German IP. I hope that this will not be so since it would make quite a few German HOI Players skip HOI4 (at least those who I know).

 

[sermaciej]

i hope you two will be able to play normal, uncensored version of HoI IV :/

 

[Skylax]

From what I have heard the issue for video games is that, from a legal perspective, they are seen as "toys" (regardless of age restrictions for specific games.)

The distribution of Nazi-symbolism (as well as all proganda from/for forbidden parties) is outlawed in Germany with a few exceptions:

1. if they are part of citizen education to protect against anticonstitutional endeavors.
2. if they are part of art or science
3. if they are part of research and teaching
4. if they are part of reports on events and process of historic and current affairs

The prevailing law theory in Germany still constitutes tha video games are lawfully not "categorised" as art, neither do they report on events of historic affairs. Some "classify" (=define!) them as toys in Germany which makes a lot of sense. They are not purely entertainment like a movie, they have an inherent interactional character and offer the user certain ways of dealing with them. Video games have more in common with toys than movies, that is pretty easy to accept. The idea of protection with the law is that (Nazi)-propagandists can't make games to glorify their symbolism and distribute them on school yards etc. There are constant discussions in the law scene to classify video games as a form of art, though. Of course, those processes last a looooong time.

However, there has been a lot of misunderstanding of German laws in the gaming industry! The is no lawful definition of video games being toys. According to German law, each and every case (=game) has to be scrutinized individually. Until today, there has only been 1 ruling of a German law court regarding Nazi-symbolism in a video game and that case was 21 years ago and was concerned with the first Wolfenstein 3D.
So there is a pretty good chance if a game nowadays featured a swastika it would not be forbidden by a court because the perception of video games has changed. (HoI, being the sandbox game it is and the level of freedom it provides the user with, it might be tricky). No publisher dares to actually try it out though, for one simple reason: the German USK (a self-monitoring of entertainment software, somewhat comparable to PEGI) will not rate any games with swastikas in it for inexplicable (and intransparant) reasons. A game without USK seal is very hard to sell in Germany as it can be indexed by the government at any time. A consequent trial, that may exculpates the publisher would take months or years and the game could not be sold. This is economically bullshit. So the gaming companies just go the easy way (understandably!) and create a censored version and blame the German law, because the law can't speak up and defend itself. This will go on until legal certainty will be established, which won't be the case until someone goes on trial. Vicious circle...

I hope that this will not be so since it would make quite a few German HOI Players skip HOI4 (at least those who I know).

So they only want to play the game if they get swastikas, Hitlers and Görings? That is kind of twisted, don't you think?

 

[Gamer_1745]

There are clearly recognized Educational Software & Educational Games. They teach many different things. HoI as a standalone product might not be enough of an Educational Game. There is a group that uses Educational Games to help teach history 'Interactive History Project'*. They could bundle HOI IV with something from the Interactive History Project which requires HOI IV to run. So they would be selling the Educational product that just includes HOI IV as part of it. I think this would clearly meet a definition of a Educational Game. I am not sure of German Legal practice if you can go to the courts to get a ruling or if you have to do something and see if you are brought up on charges and then defend yourself i court.


*Interactive History Project

Interactive History Project is an educational project to use Computer Based Training (CBT) methods to help students learn and better retain what they have learned. Attention spans are growing shorter and students who think what they need to learn is only useful to pass 'the test' will not retain what they are taught. If they think what they are learning is useful to them and will have an impact on their lives then they are much more likely to retain it. To force students to use a program in not the solution. The learning needs to be hidden in a 'Game'. In many ways CBT & games are not functionally different. A game is something they want to use and CBT is something they are told to use. To think of a game as a toy in incorrect. A toy in an object, a game in an activity. The team is made up of educators and students of history.

 

[Skylax]

There are clearly recognized Educational Software & Educational Games. They teach many different things. HoI as a standalone product might not be enough of an Educational Game. There is a group that uses Educational Games to help teach history 'Interactive History Project'*. They could bundle HOI IV with something from the Interactive History Project which requires HOI IV to run. So they would be selling the Educational product that just includes HOI IV as part of it. I think this would clearly meet a definition of a Educational Game. I am not sure of German Legal practice if you can go to the courts to get a ruling or if you have to do something and see if you are brought up on charges and then defend yourself i court.

Who gets fooled by that? The program itself is under scrutiny in court and not the package whatsoever. Just putting a different lable on it doesn't change the nature of a game. Educational software would be something to click through videos and texts concerned with a certain topic but certainly not a software that allows you to produce units, create battle plans and conquer the world as you please with Germany and Hitler as your political leader.

You have to be brought up on charges. This is why there still is legal uncertainty with that matter. Nobody does it since publishers fear they can't sell the game since USK won't allow them to use the seal, therefore making their product a target of the government to put the game on the index until legal matters are resolved which could take a year or two.

To think of a game as a toy in incorrect. A toy in an object, a game in an activity.

This is not a very convincing distinction at all. A soccer ball is a toy you need to play the game of soccer. According to this analogy, the HoI4 copy you buy in a store/online is a toy you need to play HoI4. I don't see your point.

 

[Gamer_1745]

Who gets fooled by that? The program itself is under scrutiny in court and not the package whatsoever. Just putting a different lable on it doesn't change the nature of a game.

I am not talking about 2 programs bundled together but either selling 1 that requires the other to run or they can easily be made as one. Think selling an Educational DLC the requires the main game (which is free if you buy the DLC) or just combining the DLC & game as one (not 2 separate things). This is not a fooling someone thing. The interactive part is essential for immersion and the reason someone wants to retain the information. Just picking which video to watch next does not help with retention.

Ok you missed my point ( must not be saying this clearly).

toy = soccer ball = computer
game = activity (playing soccer) = learning method
You can learn by reading, watching or doing. I am suggesting a game is a very good method of learning things.


I though as much about that there is not a simple method to get a ruling without starting to do something that might later be judged as illegal.

 

[RealGrognard]

Censorship is wrong!

Especially as this is a representation of history!

It's some sort of superstitious ritual gesture, as if to say "if we never see a swastika then we can pretend the war never happened!!" GROW UP.

It's like just censoring the word 'f--k'.

Comments regarding sexual acts with mothers removed - Secret Master

But if I twist my ankle and say 'f--k, that hurt!' then that needs to be censored.

"Against stupidity, the Gods themselves struggle in vain"
-- Friedrich von Schiller

 

[RealGrognard]

Another example: it's perfectly acceptable to be a far-right anti-immigrant demagogue, and to run for public office on the basis of your views. That's fine.

But what, some people are playing a wargame for fun and there's a Nazi Germany in that time period??? CENSOR IT

 

[Gamer_1745]

I am sorry, I don't think this is the place to discuss the rightness or wrongness of German law. We are talking about here & other places how Paradox deals with the realities of HOI IV & German law.

 

[LordOfWar16]

I used to get the uncencered version of the previous iterations of HOI, but since HOI is bound to STEAM - it will depend on how rigid STEAM will region lock it. If they are going to rigidly region lock it there will be no way that you will be able to play any other version with a German IP. I hope that this will not be so since it would make quite a few German HOI Players skip HOI4 (at least those who I know).

the only games that get region locked are russian versions. Steam doesnt usualy region lock any other versions of games. Even if it would be region locked, either let an friend in swiss or austria gift you the game or use an VPN to activate it. I mean sure, its against the terms of use but frankly Valve doesnt care, they only have that for legal reasons in there. As far as i know Hearts of Iron 3 doesnt have an region lock either and that has pretty much the exact same "illegal" content in it.

 

[Skylax]

It's some sort of superstitious ritual gesture, as if to say "if we never see a swastika then we can pretend the war never happened!!" GROW UP.

This is not the intention of the "censorship" of unconstitutional symbolism in Germany.
You don't take the situation and the circumstances into account under which the law was created in first place. Hitler didn't totally usurped the power, he and his henchmen were actually elected due to pretty effective propaganda. This makes Germany a somewhat special (but not the only) case in history where a democracy was turned into a dictatorship by flaws of democratic elements. The seed Nationalsocialism and its hate was also planted in the society and you can't just get rid of this by killing Hitler. Something had to be done to prevent some strong ideology (when this law was created, its authors also feared communism) abolishing democracy with ruthless and effective propaganda. The German people had just proven to be suspectible to propaganda, hence this law was the right choice. I understand people who want to get rid of the law nowadays claiming that Germany is a stable democracy now and the law is outdated. But your argument against "censorship" in general is just not valid in this case.

Besides, the gaming industry is subject to so many restriction and forms of censorship. You rarely see any nudity in video games because you would have a hard time selling those games in the US and get a marketable PEGI-rating for it. You just don't call it censorship, because they don't bother to make 2 special versions of games, one featuring nudity and one leaving it out. That is because the anglo-saxon mentality is the benchmark for what belongs in video games. If Germany was the benchmark, then Paradox would not dare to feature any nazi-symbolism in their games at all, then you wouldn't speak of censorship either.

One last point: Germany is by far not the worst of the western countries regarding cencorship. Blacklists for websites are pretty big in Australia.

 

[Will Steel]

It makes me wonder how every single game is freely distributed here in India through Steam and other sites, even those that portray India in a wrong way or involve gore and mass killing. Yet in a 'liberal western country' like Germany they are subject to censorship.

I guess that is because German government knows what games are and what their content is, while those old-age corrupt, fat-arse illiterate technophobes in our bureaucracy still think of 'games' as Super Mario Bros, car racing, Othello, Duck Hunt and Contra. That, or the government isn't pushing laws into effect intentionally.

 

[Drewbdu]

It makes me wonder how every single game is freely distributed here in India through, even those that portray India in a wrong way or involve gore and mass killing. Yet in a 'liberal western country' like Germany they are subject to censorship.

I guess that is because German government knows what games are and what their content is, while those old-age corrupt, fat-arse illiterate technophobes in our bureaucracy still think of 'games' as Super Mario Bros, car racing, Othello, Duck Hunt and Contra. That, or the government isn't pushing laws into effect intentionally.

Well the government being illiterate technophobes is being used as an argument for why it is censored in Germany .

 

[Secret Master]

We aren't wasting forum space making obscure comments regarding ejaculation and other people's parental units. Apparently, this is why we can't have nice things.

Also, this really isn't the right place to discuss this topic anyway. I'm going to close this thread. If you want to discuss censorship sans ejaculation, you can do it in the OT forum.

Thread closed.