Will feudal kingdoms going elective be changed?

[kmh42]

The worst offender of this whole Elective Monarchy thing is, that you can no longer play the marriage game on a King or Emperor level, because all princes and brides give ony weak claims under elective monarchy. And .. yeah.. try to find a use for weak claims when the other Kingdom will never have a child ruler, regency or female ruler due to having elective. Which also kinda eliminates one of the biggest points of the game (gaining claims through marriage and pressing them).
Originally this only affected the HRE (which it should), but a few decades into a game will turn most of the Christian realms into mini-HRE's.

This is exactly what I currently en counting in the Weekly Challenge #4

He said "oligarchic" democracy, and I think your righteous response ignored the oligarchic part. It may have been a bit of a contradiction of terms, but I think you should get off that high horse. I think it's pretty clear that what the poster meant was a description of elective succession, and I don't see how anyone could think that he was actually saying it was like a modern democracy. He wasn't saying it was like a modern election, just that the country's oligarchy (that is, its dukes) had an election amongst themselves to choose the next ruler.

There is no such thing then a "oligarchic" democracy. A government can be one think or the other but not both. In the moment an oligarch has the political power, democracy (power by the people) ends. I know I am very strict in my definition but is more imported than ever to clarify what a real democracy is. Sorry if this sound harsh, maybe I watch to much news and talked to too much stupid people lately.

Back on topic: I ran into a bug in my last game where myself and the AI could change succession type almost at will because the requirement to have all vassals like you was getting checked automatically. Could this be affecting some of the succession problems people were talking about?

I don't think the players don't have the problem of to much elective succession in their realms. It's more of AI realm become elective overtime and not making it back. With you bug it would be interesting how the AI reacts and if the realms switching to Primo again ASAP.

 

[User29]

Just to be clear. When you saying CB you mean a faction, right?

One Faction to oust the ruler only available when the council has full authority, but with elective succussion.

And another oust ruler faction with no requirements but without elective succussion but it enacts full council authority.

My suggestion to the hole elective problem would be much simpler. Just lower the requirements for changing to another succession law. For AI rulers it's way to hard to please every vassal for the purpose of succession law change.

that effects a lot more in means of balance, but neither of our suggestions actually matter

elective succession has nothing to do with democracy. Democracy is more then just an election. It means government by the people, democracy has something to do with Separation of powers, free press, freedom of speech,... .Feudal vassals choosing the next King is no Democracy! Please understand and except that. This is a very important in modern times. Too many countries call them self Democracies just because they have an election.
Sorry for the real world speech, let's focus on the topic again.

dude that was a joke, I'm well aware.

 

[kmh42]

dude that was a joke, I'm well aware.

Good, that's sorted then.

that effects a lot more in means of balance, but neither of our suggestions actually matter

What exactly do you mean with that. I really sorry but I have a very hard time understanding you. That puzzles me very much.

 

[Orctavius]

Prompted by this thread, I checked the current succession of laws of all the independent feudal Christian realms in my current game (excluding independent counts), which is currently in the year 1315. 11 realms had primogeniture laws, 5 were elective, and 1 was seniority. Interestingly, the HRE was one of the primogeniture realms and the Byzantines were one of the elective realms. That's still a decisive majority of primogeniture realms, but also a significant minority of elective realms. There's still over a century left of game play for the situation to change, but I thought it would be interesting to check.

 

[kmh42]

I think the problem is not that realms turning elective but rather staying this way. For AI it is very hard to get back to something else becasue they don't plan to do so. They just do it when they are able to do so, much like the player does. Who is with me?

 

[SigurdStormhand]

A note on this - I've been playing without Conclave the last few days and have noticed something.

Crown Authority no longer blocks Elective Succession.

I assume this is to balance the Vanilla game with Conclave, but the fact is that the Elective Faction is the second most popular after "raise Council Authority" or "Lower crown Authority". So the AI has basically been shot in the foot (and the player will always capitulate to the Elective Faction unless he just took the Kingdom, anyway).

 

[ninoallen]

another problem that nobody seems to be addressing is the fact that vassals can now join factions regardless if their opinion of you is above 40 or even at 100.

ive had vassals recently given duchies who turned on me in a matter of years...you'd think awarding someone with the title of Duke and making them nobility they would be forever in you debt, apparently not

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Irrc the figure that prevents a character joining a faction is +60, not +40, and I've definitely been able to get vassals to leave factions by getting them over +80.

However, that isn't to say it isn't much harder now than in Horselords, and that's not entirely a good thing.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

Most countries should start Elective in 769. Even Byzantium was more Elective than anything else.

There should be a middle step, an Elective Primogeniture, maybe, showing that while still elective, the king's son is automatically considered the favorite to win.

 

[ninoallen]

Irrc the figure that prevents a character joining a faction is +60, not forty, and I've definately been able to get vassals to leave factions by getting them over +80.

However, that isn't to say it isn't much harder not than in Horselords, and that's not entirely a good thing.

never happens for me, it use to be 40+ was to prevent them from joining, and 60 or 80 to remove them from a faction, ive had 100+ characters in factions against me

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Then I'd say you have a bug.

 

[ninoallen]

Then I'd say you have a bug.

yes blame it on a bug..nonsense

i just started a game as the byzantine emperor in 867, 3 months in and i already have an increase council power faction popping up even though the emperor is loved.
i accepted and said fine since it was a war declaration one.

2 months later another one pops up, i pretty much rage quit and said forget it.

done with vanilla CK2. seems the modders are doing a better job than the actual dev's.

 

[JonathanOfArc]

Almost every character in the game is trying to improve their station in life. Getting a title and seat on the council puts them into position to gain the throne. Their quickest way to your ruler title is by getting the realm over to Elective. No other succession law gives them a quicker way to their main goal. I've noticed once a king has been crown that he tries to go to something else like Primo, but gets declined by the council. At that point, the ruler is trying to keep the title and thus trying to get Primo, while the rest of the council is trying to keep things Elective which is why it's unlikely an Elective realm would switch to anything else. If the ruler does manage to get Primo, the council will stop at nothing to get back to Elective once favors and favorable opinion wear off.

 

[Rubidium]

never happens for me, it use to be 40+ was to prevent them from joining, and 60 or 80 to remove them from a faction, ive had 100+ characters in factions against me

Generally this happens either due to a favor (with Conclave) or due to a spymaster coercing them into joining a faction.

 

[Rags17]

:
There is no such thing then a "oligarchic" democracy. A government can be one think or the other but not both. In the moment an oligarch has the political power, democracy (power by the people) ends. I know I am very strict in my definition but is more imported than ever to clarify what a real democracy is. Sorry if this sound harsh, maybe I watch to much news and talked to too much stupid people lately.
:

Are you serious ? How about Russia for starters ? What about 90% of the former East Bloc or Soviet Republics ? Technically China is a democracy too - are all these countries democracies or oligarchies ?

The truth is that they are all both - they all have the trappings of democracy but are actually run by a small moneyed class that trades power and influence among themselves.

(That pretty much sums up the US at this stage too !)

 

[TheStijninator]

I think the major problem post-Conclave is that it's way too easy to switch to primo, by 1120 most dukes are primo, leading to huge vassal blobs. Even the HRE becomes primo very easily.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Almost every character in the game is trying to improve their station in life. Getting a title and seat on the council puts them into position to gain the throne. Their quickest way to your ruler title is by getting the realm over to Elective. No other succession law gives them a quicker way to their main goal. I've noticed once a king has been crown that he tries to go to something else like Primo, but gets declined by the council. At that point, the ruler is trying to keep the title and thus trying to get Primo, while the rest of the council is trying to keep things Elective which is why it's unlikely an Elective realm would switch to anything else. If the ruler does manage to get Primo, the council will stop at nothing to get back to Elective once favors and favorable opinion wear off.

You're absolutely right - what a lot of us are saying, though, is that it's too easy to switch back and forth. So king switches to Primo, vassals overthrow, new King switches to Primo, etc.

 

[Olligarchy]

No matter what people say, Tanistry should be more available for everyone to keep things in the family.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Tanistry should really only be for the Gaels (Irish and Scottish).

However, there should be more succession laws, a Germanic Elective for the Anglo-Saxons, Saxons and Norse etc. where all vassals Count and Above get a vote and older brothers of the monarch are preferred over younger sons. There should also be an Imperial Elective for realms with Imperial Administration where the vassals get a vote the Emperor can overide (for a big opinion penalty).

 

[Llyw olaf]

Generally this happens either due to a favor (with Conclave) or due to a spymaster coercing them into joining a faction.

^ This! high opinion vassals can still be coerced into a faction. I sometimes get the impression that some players forget, or are unaware, that spymasters can do more than just steal tech from the Byzantines, use your own spy to get them out of the faction.