AM i right that there's no more distance penalty anymore ?
I'm not sure that's why i'm asking. Would matter regarding blobs as well.
I'm not sure that's why i'm asking. Would matter regarding blobs as well.
Will Fatimids be Nerfed?
- Thread starter Kelban
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I agree with gliomarto, I typically see five ways that the Fatimids go
1) (10%) Fatimids behave as OP describes, and manage to hold it together, thus becoming a superpower
2) (30%) Fatimids behave as OP describes, the moment the ruler dies, empire fragments into roughly starting Fatimid lands, and their conquests in Italy and Greece fragment into independent emirates that are quickly reconquered by Christians
3) (40%) Fatimids stagnate, kept too busy by major uprisings upon each Caliph's succession and repeated minor uprisings for the remainder of their rule to expand outwards
4) (10%) Fatimids collapse quickly into Egypt + the Hejaz, Emirate of Jerusalem, and the large Syrian emirate
5) (10%) Fatimids lose crusade for Jerusalem, spend rest of game repeatedly reconquering and relosing Jerusalem
In all cases, a new dynasty eventually overthrows the Fatimids, and the rest of the game is spent alternating between the Fatimids retaking their empire and the new dynasty retaking it. Oft times a third dynasty pops up, effectively removing that pastel green blob's threat.
1) (10%) Fatimids behave as OP describes, and manage to hold it together, thus becoming a superpower
2) (30%) Fatimids behave as OP describes, the moment the ruler dies, empire fragments into roughly starting Fatimid lands, and their conquests in Italy and Greece fragment into independent emirates that are quickly reconquered by Christians
3) (40%) Fatimids stagnate, kept too busy by major uprisings upon each Caliph's succession and repeated minor uprisings for the remainder of their rule to expand outwards
4) (10%) Fatimids collapse quickly into Egypt + the Hejaz, Emirate of Jerusalem, and the large Syrian emirate
5) (10%) Fatimids lose crusade for Jerusalem, spend rest of game repeatedly reconquering and relosing Jerusalem
In all cases, a new dynasty eventually overthrows the Fatimids, and the rest of the game is spent alternating between the Fatimids retaking their empire and the new dynasty retaking it. Oft times a third dynasty pops up, effectively removing that pastel green blob's threat.
I have never seen that. They have a good chance to win the first crusade, depending on how many and how well the Christians contribute, but I never saw them overthrowing the ERE and in the end they get almost always gobbled up by the Ilkhanate.
Sure, it may happen here and there, but I don't see any real strong tendency for the Fatimids to become too powerful. As I said: In most cases the Islamic states already losing out badly, specially during midgame, when the Mongols arrive and they face frequent crusades with holy orders overrunning them.
I'm ruling a decent sized Arabic Empire by now and even I had problems, weathering an all out crusade by all of Europe.
In that game the Fatimids became powerful for a while, because I was their vassal, but after I became independent I completely destroyed them in a few decades. The Seljuks fell apart right at the beginning of the game and the new dynasty, that was able to pull the Persian Sultanate together again after about 100 years was almost completely conquered by the Mongols. In Spain, Castile has conquered everything and united the crowns of Leon and Aragon. If it weren't for me, the Islamic realms would be wiped from the mape completely by now, that is, how weak they are.
It used to happen in every single one of my games. (Ok, maybe not every single one, but close enough for it to be irrelevant)
If i started in 1066, the Fatimids would be bordering Hungary in 1120 - at the very latest. I can recall seeing the ERE blob only once after SoI, and that was because the Fatimid ruler died 2 days into the game.. It was so bad that I basically had to nerf the muslim invasion CB to the ground, I just couldn't stand watching the initial Fatimid blob, followed by the HRE eating it piece by piece afterwards..
EDIT: Also, normally Spain would fall pretty quickly, but once in a while Castille or Leon would unite the realms, in which case the muslims would get overrun, and they'd expand into north Africa, which I also find quite.. absurd.
Main problem to me seems that you can use holy war CB's across sealanes too readily. (I.e. I can understand holy wars being waged across north africa to sicily to southern italy, but not that France launches for algiers, shouldn't be made possible except through crusades IMO)
If i started in 1066, the Fatimids would be bordering Hungary in 1120 - at the very latest. I can recall seeing the ERE blob only once after SoI, and that was because the Fatimid ruler died 2 days into the game.. It was so bad that I basically had to nerf the muslim invasion CB to the ground, I just couldn't stand watching the initial Fatimid blob, followed by the HRE eating it piece by piece afterwards..
EDIT: Also, normally Spain would fall pretty quickly, but once in a while Castille or Leon would unite the realms, in which case the muslims would get overrun, and they'd expand into north Africa, which I also find quite.. absurd.
Main problem to me seems that you can use holy war CB's across sealanes too readily. (I.e. I can understand holy wars being waged across north africa to sicily to southern italy, but not that France launches for algiers, shouldn't be made possible except through crusades IMO)
I agree. I have yet to experience an invasion of Byzantium, the last two games I did the AI Greeks beat back the fatimids and for some reason croatia was a the superpower of the ERE. I have seen a lot of complaints about mulsims invading everywhere but the point stands it does cost them 500 piety which was a really good choice to balance it because it can take a few years for them to get even remotely close to that number. The only thing that really sets the fatimids apart from the others in control of the mamluks from the beginning. That and their consistent control of the shia caliphate even after a decadence invasion.
All that needs to be done is to make it so that invasions and holy wars can only be launched against neighboring states. That would solve a lot of problems without having to resort to particular exploits/safeguards for certain states -- i.e. the Fatimids.
I think the most frustrating start is Seljuk victory in Armenia followed immediately by Fatimid invasions in Greece or Anatolia. Once the Byzantines are crippled, there's no real obstacle to the Fatimids invading Sicily and Italy, and it all goes downhill from there. I think it could be mostly fixed by a combination of upping the cost of invasions and by changing most of Egypt and Syria back to Sunni Islam, since part of the Fatimid's ahistorical power comes from ahistorical religious unity.
Agreed, it would also be mostly historical. Most holy wars and Islamic invasions were against neighbours. Having holy wars with a country on the other side of Europe does not make any sense.
I think that the reason it isn't like that is because the landless hordes would not be able to appear.
Aren't they using "Mongol Invasion" as a different sort of Invasion CB?
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Seljuk victory is historical though. And it shouldn't be up to the byzantines to form a wall against the Fatimids. Both empires were falling apart more or less rapidly (and it wasn't just because of Manzikert).
I say, a bunch of druze and sunni provinces, negative starting money and a lot of heretic or sunni courtiers. Also there should probably be a way to make sunni and shia heresies of each other (maybe include it in the holy war cb conditions?)
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Yes, in most of my games muslims eat everythng on their path. Thye blob insanely. In other games, its the hre the one that makes a huge blob
I have experienced it. And getting 500 piety is really easy for the Fatimids: holy war against Nubia, holy war against the independent sheikdoms in Tripoli and Beirut, extra piety from hajjajjajaja(or however it is spelled) and add the increased piety gain from owning temples(many where acquired in the holy wars). Next time you start a new game in 1066 just look at how much piety the Fatimid ruler has after 5 years.
And I agree that the Mamluks are a pretty big problem. I once saw the Fatimids in two simultaneous succession crisis' and an independence war with only two or three duchies still under the ruler's control, the ruler won all three wars because of his kingdom sized mercenary army. Also the Sayyid trait is an unfair advantage, giving them +10 relations to all muslims, which reduces the number of rebellious vassals long enough for the ruler to build up prestige and the old ruler bonus.
You know, historically, they were a double-edged sword once the rulers got to be too reliant on them.
Well another problem with the Mamluks is that currently they're both the wrong culture and religion.
The Fatimids tend to do well in the early starts like 1066 start. However, pick a 1081 start, and they don't do so well. The Byzantines tend to defend Greece well, in the 1081 start, probably because they lost half their territory to the Sultanate of Rum. From my own experiences, the Fatimids tend to blob in the 1066 start, and the Byzantines tend blob in the 1081 start, they start to gobble up the north, Russia and the Cuman lands. So depending on the start, I see both the Fatimids and the Byzantines as over powered blobs.
My new policy is, if I play Muslim, I play the early starts, as it's very easy to ally with the Fatamids, and in that scenario, you hope they beat the ERE. Sunni and Shia only take a -10 diplomatic hit, not a big deal. Where as if I play Christian, I play 1081 start since the Fatamids don't do as well, and like I said the ERE tend to hold their own and even blob to the north. Again, not a big deal with the -10 diplomatic hit.
So, the Fatimids don't bother me too much anymore, although if you look at actual history, I can see why it would bother you. No way would the Fatamids be able to invade Greece in history with all their internal strife.
My new policy is, if I play Muslim, I play the early starts, as it's very easy to ally with the Fatamids, and in that scenario, you hope they beat the ERE. Sunni and Shia only take a -10 diplomatic hit, not a big deal. Where as if I play Christian, I play 1081 start since the Fatamids don't do as well, and like I said the ERE tend to hold their own and even blob to the north. Again, not a big deal with the -10 diplomatic hit.
So, the Fatimids don't bother me too much anymore, although if you look at actual history, I can see why it would bother you. No way would the Fatamids be able to invade Greece in history with all their internal strife.
Just a quick testrun this morning, in October 1067 I had like 1000 piety from holy wars and the bonus for the paragon of virtue-anbition, 10 years later I had took all of Greece and Anatolia (and Abyssinia-1 county but that doesn't count).
Oh and I also managed to kill all three premade sons before they had male offspring, so a strong hand-grown boy with amazing traits is going to inherit.
The invasion on greece was ridiculous. Not only did it dissolve the ERE at the early point in 1070, due to Konstantinos Doukas becoming a count level vassal of mine, but furthermore I was able to immediately (!!) raise massive levies from my greek vassals (I went from 10k levy to 28k despite wasting maybe 4ooo men in assaults) allowing me to field 7 or eight holy wars the moment the war ended to take all the small duchies now leftover independent.
Furthermore you start at limited CA instead of autonomous, allowing you to raise it for your first 100 piety to be able to revoke all infidel titles after the invasions you pull off. I revoked all greek counties and cities except what Konstantinos Doukas owned (need to wait for our truce to run off) and appointed Wali-Emirs (Doges) of all of Greece, Anatolia and Bulgaria.
Currently building one university per year at least. in 1077.
Solution for this: -money at the beginning to not allow the use of Mamlukes from the start away, and way more then one heretic vassal.
Also (same as for the Varangian Guard) an event where they decide to support the pretender and not the current ruler in succession wars would be helpful /specially as opposite to the Varangians or casual mercenary invasions, the 7ooo mamlukes will probably be the bigger flank of their stack, and not get wiped out by the levy right away as the casual 1500 merc stack declaring the invasion of the HRE wile marching with 30000 men.
Oh and I also managed to kill all three premade sons before they had male offspring, so a strong hand-grown boy with amazing traits is going to inherit.
The invasion on greece was ridiculous. Not only did it dissolve the ERE at the early point in 1070, due to Konstantinos Doukas becoming a count level vassal of mine, but furthermore I was able to immediately (!!) raise massive levies from my greek vassals (I went from 10k levy to 28k despite wasting maybe 4ooo men in assaults) allowing me to field 7 or eight holy wars the moment the war ended to take all the small duchies now leftover independent.
Furthermore you start at limited CA instead of autonomous, allowing you to raise it for your first 100 piety to be able to revoke all infidel titles after the invasions you pull off. I revoked all greek counties and cities except what Konstantinos Doukas owned (need to wait for our truce to run off) and appointed Wali-Emirs (Doges) of all of Greece, Anatolia and Bulgaria.
Currently building one university per year at least. in 1077.
Solution for this: -money at the beginning to not allow the use of Mamlukes from the start away, and way more then one heretic vassal.
Also (same as for the Varangian Guard) an event where they decide to support the pretender and not the current ruler in succession wars would be helpful /specially as opposite to the Varangians or casual mercenary invasions, the 7ooo mamlukes will probably be the bigger flank of their stack, and not get wiped out by the levy right away as the casual 1500 merc stack declaring the invasion of the HRE wile marching with 30000 men.