Will Fatimids be Nerfed?

[yezhanquan]

Just in case, in later starts Saladin does exactly the same things as the Fatimids.
And the Pope usually replies with a Crusade for Andalusia.
With the Spanish kingdoms swearing fealty to the HRE.

Yes I'm mad.

In my Francia game, Saladin didn't expand that much. In fact, at 1380+, Kingdom of Jerusalem is still around, and even slightly bigger.

The Pope did call Crusades on Iberia a few times. Once, I grabbed Leon. Another time, HRE grabbed Mauritania, which by this time had large parts of Andalusia in it. Before that, despairing at how the Christian states cannot fend off the Muslims, I brought them under one roof.

 

[barny]

The Islamic realms become too weak rather quickly. Even if they are able to conquer the Iberian peninsular, the HRE and France will drive them off and then start to conquer North Africa.

The Fatimids are one of the most powerful realms at the beginning of the game, so nerfing them would weaken the Islam even more. Maybe they should boost the Seljuks a bit more, since that would be closer to the historical situation. In the end they will get overrun by the Mongols anyway.

 

[Helox]

Am I the only player who have never seen The Fatimds blob into the ERE? In most of my games they just expand into arabia and then die when decendency gets to high. HRE on the other hand expand way to often into africa and iberia.

 

[Sunfighter]

I must of got one of the lucky games then, because the Fatimds basically dont exist in my game. 1150. The ERE is the massive blob.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

The Islamic realms become too weak rather quickly. Even if they are able to conquer the Iberian peninsular, the HRE and France will drive them off and then start to conquer North Africa.

The Fatimids are one of the most powerful realms at the beginning of the game, so nerfing them would weaken the Islam even more. Maybe they should boost the Seljuks a bit more, since that would be closer to the historical situation. In the end they will get overrun by the Mongols anyway.

Nerfing them wouldnt be a problem if the AI could handle Decadence a bit better, maybe related to traits or such. I have no idea how it works now with the AI, but that could help a bit and allow nerfing.

 

[barny]

Nerfing them wouldnt be a problem if the AI could handle Decadence a bit better, maybe related to traits or such. I have no idea how it works now with the AI, but that could help a bit and allow nerfing.

Nerfing them on one side, just to buff them on the other?

 

[der Kriegsherr]

Wow.
And I thought the Fatimids were overpowered before. After reading some of the stories here, I realized that I've been lucky this whole time.


If you really want to remove the Fatimid problem and you're playing as a Catholic state(only really works with Kingdoms of above), you should join the First Crusade ASAP and contribute the most to get control of Jerusalem. After that, try repeatedly assassinating their rulers to provoke succession crises and take the opportunity to gradually expand in to Syria and Egypt in particular. Granted, you won't be able to use much of it until the provinces are converted, but taking Egypt deprives the Fatimids of a LOT of manpower.


May not work for everyone, but it's generally served me well.
Oh, and if it didn't go without saying, prepare to fight off sporadic invasions/Jihads.

 

[takedown47]

The past 3 games I started as a count within the Byzantine Empire from 1066. Before 1100, the Fatimids decimated the Byzantine Empire in all 3 of these games by use of their incredibly overpowered Invasion CB. Usually they start a "Fatimid Invasion of Greece" despite the fact that the kingdom of Greece hasn't even been formed.

I think that something needs to be done to balance the Fatimids, particularly dealing with the Invasion mechanic. IMO, the Invasion CB should only be available to the Mongols and Aztecs. At the very least, make it harder for Muslims to use Invasion, since Christians need special papal approval to use it under restricted circumstances.

Try the CK2Plus mod, it does alot to balanced out the vanilla version of the game.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Nerfing them on one side, just to buff them on the other?

Well the buffing would help the small muslim states, on the other hand the starting situation for fatimids should be nerfed (for much better chances of internal trouble).

As well as they shouldnt be able to keep attrition free troops after revolts/decadence invasions.
By that they actually get stronger i find. Thats arguable. But my impression is that the extra troops from decadence invasions/revolts help them more than it hurts. Realms may not be more stable, but have more armies for expansions.
Though thats only what i read and was told when asking in other threads. Still have to play muslims myself.


Another problem seems to be that independence factions rarely succeed in muslim realms, if at all. Just my impression, but i mean did you ever see the Fatimids/Egypt implode ?

 

[lordreaven448]

Unfortunately not, back then I've been just running a number of hands-off games to look at overall tendencies. But I've been making saves every century or so, so that's what there is at the nearest save, still pretty impressive

At the same time that's what we have on the South:

On this screenshot there're way more ahistorical things than Byzantine being in deadlock with Muslims. Like France that never existed. Or Ghana in Lombard League (HRE is in Mali almost every single game, unlike Fatimid that may or may not defeat ERE).

You have no Idea how bad I want the Pagans to steamroll everyone in atleast one game. Atleast as of now The Fatimids, Byzantium, HRE Blob (Had Castille Blob down to Mali once).

On topic the Fatimids just ruined my Hungary game. Used Invasion CB on Hungary itself and hit me with 40,000 troops.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

The Islamic realms become too weak rather quickly. Even if they are able to conquer the Iberian peninsular, the HRE and France will drive them off and then start to conquer North Africa.

The Fatimids are one of the most powerful realms at the beginning of the game, so nerfing them would weaken the Islam even more. Maybe they should boost the Seljuks a bit more, since that would be closer to the historical situation. In the end they will get overrun by the Mongols anyway.

The thing is, historically the Fatimids were a complete mess by this time, all but doomed to collapse or invasion. In-game, near 100% decadence and several hundred gold in debt would be a good way to model it. Also, lots of penalties to levies and taxes and virtually everything necessary to maintain a large empire.

Seljuks also don't need much of a buff. The overrunning of the ERE by the Turks wasn't set in stone until way past 1066 - it was a major power that could more than hold its own against invasion when there wasn't a crippling civil war, or when a terrible fluke like the emperor being captured in battle didn't occur.

Overall, I think most of our problems that aren't realm specific (such as the Fatimids not being represented in a state of decline) are due to lack of proper logistics. A naval invasion from Egypt launched at the heart of the ERE would have been out of the question even when the Fatimids were at their height, and we saw in our timeline how difficult it was for all of Western Christendom to hold even the highly urbanized Levant, while single powers in game can easily hold the desert of the Maghreb.

 

[Divi]

The thing is, historically the Fatimids were a complete mess by this time, all but doomed to collapse or invasion. In-game, near 100% decadence and several hundred gold in debt would be a good way to model it. Also, lots of penalties to levies and taxes and virtually everything necessary to maintain a large empire.

They should start in debt and with a bunch of already hired turkish mercenaries on top. A fatimid start should be pretty much an unforgiving foray into what a mercenary revolt looks like when things go to hell. It should be the muslim version of playing as the Godwins in 1066. Can you stop the collapse before Alp Arslan or the syrian emirs decide you look juicy?

Also I do feel the Seljuks could deserve a bit of a buff if only so they don't collapse the minute Malik Shah takes the throne.

 

[unmerged(281782)]

It should be the muslim version of playing as the Godwins in 1066. Can you stop the collapse before Alp Arslan or the syrian emirs decide you look juicy?

Slightly off-topic, but actually almost every game I play after the recent patch England is ruled by Godwins again by 1080 or so, unless I intervene.
Likewise, I've seen many times Shia getting some other name, only to turn back to Fatimid in 10-20 years. Over the course of one of the games they were overthrown 11 times owing to decadence, every time coming back to power, till HRE finally put them to rest.

 

[Faber81]

Am I the only one who finds that in late game period the muslim are UNDERpowered? Ok, at the beginning and in the mid-game they are powerful but then they get pushed back and are on the verge of extinction in 70% of my games... I fear that nerfing the only big muslim power will bring more unbalance in late period games actually.

 

[knppel]

Yes, Muslims, exspecially Persia and Egypt/Seljuk and Fatimid get weaker over time (unless they expand), due to them relying on a vassalized 7k merc stack which kicks ass early game but once you fight enemies with 50k levies isn't bringing much difference anymore.

 

[liamgamer55]

Am I the only one who finds that in late game period the muslim are UNDERpowered? Ok, at the beginning and in the mid-game they are powerful but then they get pushed back and are on the verge of extinction in 70% of my games... I fear that nerfing the only big muslim power will bring more unbalance in late period games actually.

The late game isn't very balanced generally. It's certainly possible to buff muslims late game while simultaneously buffing them early game.

 

[A_Dane]

Am I the only one who finds that in late game period the muslim are UNDERpowered? Ok, at the beginning and in the mid-game they are powerful but then they get pushed back and are on the verge of extinction in 70% of my games... I fear that nerfing the only big muslim power will bring more unbalance in late period games actually.

I do tend to see the muslims getting overrun late game, but IMO I'd still prefer them getting nerfed, as what's needed is a serious tweaking of the ability to declare war.

I have no interest in seeing the fatimids overrun most of eastern europe (in my own game, until i modded it that is, the fatimids usually absorbed atleast hungary as well), only to be gobbled up by Super HRE later. Same thing for the Almoravids, they'd gobble up most of spain, then get overrun by France.

IMO, the christian thing is mostly to do with too stabil kingdoms/empires being able to raise insane amount of troops for offensive wars, and having the holy war casus belli to put them to use on blobbed-up-now-in-a-civil-war-over-decadence muslim states.

 

[barny]

The thing is, historically the Fatimids were a complete mess by this time, all but doomed to collapse or invasion. In-game, near 100% decadence and several hundred gold in debt would be a good way to model it. Also, lots of penalties to levies and taxes and virtually everything necessary to maintain a large empire.

Seljuks also don't need much of a buff. The overrunning of the ERE by the Turks wasn't set in stone until way past 1066 - it was a major power that could more than hold its own against invasion when there wasn't a crippling civil war, or when a terrible fluke like the emperor being captured in battle didn't occur.

Overall, I think most of our problems that aren't realm specific (such as the Fatimids not being represented in a state of decline) are due to lack of proper logistics. A naval invasion from Egypt launched at the heart of the ERE would have been out of the question even when the Fatimids were at their height, and we saw in our timeline how difficult it was for all of Western Christendom to hold even the highly urbanized Levant, while single powers in game can easily hold the desert of the Maghreb.

The problem is, that if you nerf the Fatimids too much, the Islamic realms will be all but destroyed as soon as 1150. If you have to nerf something, you should start with the grey blob that is the HRE, that would be far more important.

 

[Faber81]

Basically the problem is the general stability of blobs... They can conquer, but it should be really really REALLY difficult to build and mantain an empire... different culture/religion malus should matter more (after a succesfull rebellion -the paesant one- the count/liege could change religion or/and culture... now it's only a minor thing, totally useless), and succesfull crusades/jhiad should build indipendent kingdoms. That would bring a 360° nerf.. no more HRE or ERE or Fatimids or France or GH going rampage through the world!
And no more World Conquest, as it should be imho...

 

[A_Dane]

The problem is, that if you nerf the Fatimids too much, the Islamic realms will be all but destroyed as soon as 1150. If you have to nerf something, you should start with the grey blob that is the HRE, that would be far more important.

Well, IMO it's equally important. - The current state of the Fatimids can make playing in the balkans impossible. (Had one game where I played as a Hungarian Vassal, broke free and formed Wallachia. in 1115, The fatimids conquerored Bulgaria and immediatly invaded my territory).

But the HRE definiatly needs a rework, I'm personally hoping paradox will do a HRE DLC before they do a pagan one, but i doubt that'll be happening.