Will Fatimids be Nerfed?
- Thread starter Kelban
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Because you must be the only person who played a vanilla game where the pagans weren't just destroyed before the 13th century.
I just started a game tonight and within twenty years Greece is in Fatimid hands. The Dev team has known about this for awhile now and no Nerf has come of it (i think our complaints are falling on deaf ears) . I'm sad to say we might just have to get used to it. Though for me it kind of ruins a lot of the fun , i to would like to see a Seljuk victory in the ERE from time to time.
Really do wish this was possible. One game the Fatimids and Seljuks devastated eastern Europe all the way up to Finland, which would never happen if the defender was allowed to call in allies.
This sounds like a mechanic which should definitely be in the game. I also agree with you that the main problem for the Byzantines is that the Fatimids swoop in like vultures after the Seljuks have been repelled. Perhaps the AI is a bit TOO ruthless?
Perhaps they should make it so that in order to use the muslim invasion casus belli that particular sect of islam must have a border with whatever kingdom it is.
That'd mean that the fatamids could only invade Sicily if Sicily was partially Shia. Similarly they could almost never invade Greece.
It's true they're not dominant in over 50% of games... but, in the games they are dominant it's ridiculous and ahistorical.
Why would the fatamids suddenly invade greece and easily win and proceed to dominate the rest of the period? Don't you think their rulers would've done that if it was a realistic option historically? Not only are they overpowered, but they're overpowered in total contradiction in history. At least the Seljuks being ridicuously strong might be somewhat historical.
Fatimid start in 1066. Started with imprisoning and revoking all Dukes of the dynasty, letting alive only a fresh born genius boy. Holy wars in all neighbouring Sunni directions and for Armenia Minor (as I was confident to be able to beat them up together with the Seljuks).
Appointed republican vassals only, which is a total cheat for muslims as, opposed to mosque grants, making a dynasty member a republican will effectively keep him from getting married and spamming offspring (=less decadence). Invasion of Greece in maybe 1075, the Seljuk invasion was running at 60% at that point still (because I was not ashamed to lead my next war in the distracted seljuks meanwhile), took maybe a year as I majorly had invested in fleets and was able to ship the soldiers in super fast.
In 1118 My third Ruler took over, and I had switched from warrior education to stewardship. My income went from 180 to 330 monthly with the ruler change despite me lowering city taxes to second-highest.
as for the equally ruthless AI, saw them easily conquering Italy (the HRE part, not what the Pope owns) in maybe 1120. Their Sultan had diplomacy 22, as had his heir. I (Duke of Swabia and before the invasion almost King of Germany) decided to switch sides.
I think it also has a lot to do with all Crusades feeding them piety and prestige in the 1066 start as they always aim for Jerusalem which usually the Fatimids can easily defend even if they didn't blob (I have yet to see the AI form the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and I'm playing this game quite for a while).
Appointed republican vassals only, which is a total cheat for muslims as, opposed to mosque grants, making a dynasty member a republican will effectively keep him from getting married and spamming offspring (=less decadence). Invasion of Greece in maybe 1075, the Seljuk invasion was running at 60% at that point still (because I was not ashamed to lead my next war in the distracted seljuks meanwhile), took maybe a year as I majorly had invested in fleets and was able to ship the soldiers in super fast.
In 1118 My third Ruler took over, and I had switched from warrior education to stewardship. My income went from 180 to 330 monthly with the ruler change despite me lowering city taxes to second-highest.
as for the equally ruthless AI, saw them easily conquering Italy (the HRE part, not what the Pope owns) in maybe 1120. Their Sultan had diplomacy 22, as had his heir. I (Duke of Swabia and before the invasion almost King of Germany) decided to switch sides.
I think it also has a lot to do with all Crusades feeding them piety and prestige in the 1066 start as they always aim for Jerusalem which usually the Fatimids can easily defend even if they didn't blob (I have yet to see the AI form the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and I'm playing this game quite for a while).
Muslims in general need some tweaking.
1. Within the first 100 years, the Fatimid Sultuntate is absurdly powerful.
2. By 1200, the Muslims overall have usually been beaten back in my playthroughs. This includes a general loss of North Africa, Jerusalem, and sometimes Anatolia and Mesopotamia.
3. And then the 1300s hit and the Christian holy wars, especially by France and HRE, tend to just wipe out Islam from the game. And in the Middle East, the Ilkhanate conquers all. And I do mean all, I'm seeing the Ilkhanate regularly conquer Persia, Arabia and sometimes Abyssinia. In my current game as Emperor of Russia, Sunni Islam is essentially dead, and Shia Islam only exists because the Ilkhanate converted to it.
1. Within the first 100 years, the Fatimid Sultuntate is absurdly powerful.
2. By 1200, the Muslims overall have usually been beaten back in my playthroughs. This includes a general loss of North Africa, Jerusalem, and sometimes Anatolia and Mesopotamia.
3. And then the 1300s hit and the Christian holy wars, especially by France and HRE, tend to just wipe out Islam from the game. And in the Middle East, the Ilkhanate conquers all. And I do mean all, I'm seeing the Ilkhanate regularly conquer Persia, Arabia and sometimes Abyssinia. In my current game as Emperor of Russia, Sunni Islam is essentially dead, and Shia Islam only exists because the Ilkhanate converted to it.
Unfortunately not, back then I've been just running a number of hands-off games to look at overall tendencies. But I've been making saves every century or so, so that's what there is at the nearest save, still pretty impressive
At the same time that's what we have on the South:
On this screenshot there're way more ahistorical things than Byzantine being in deadlock with Muslims. Like France that never existed. Or Ghana in Lombard League (HRE is in Mali almost every single game, unlike Fatimid that may or may not defeat ERE).
It would be really fun to see it happening once, but here it's happening every other game. Not only that, but:
1. Shia didn't jihad (invasion basically is a jihad for kingdoms)
2. They would never consider invading italy, spain or greece.
3. And watch this one closely because its most imporant: The shia caliphate was an absolute MESS in 1066.
Had one game where Perm somehow became the dominant force in Russia.
(But then again, they formed an unholy alliance with the Cumans)
Though I'm not competent in religious matters, I see your point. If it is true, then I have to agree that Shia shouldn't be able to invade, however at the same time Sunni Turks should be empowered, to be able to invade Asia minor, Greece and Italy alone and succesfully.
And yes, it was a mess. But ERE was a mess as well, and still half the times it stands not only against Seljuk, but against united forces of Islam. Isn't that ahistorical?
I must be in the extreme minority here... I actually want them to give Jihads back to muslims earlier 
since the patch things are bizzarro for me, Castille consistently winning spain and sicily consistently staying christian (mostly as genoa rather then Apulia though)... I honestly dont think fatamids are OP at all, its about 50/50 with either the Byz being dominant or the fatamids in the east... If anything its the seljuks, I rarely if ever see the fatamids beat up byz unless Armenia gets conquered... thats the crux, the very armenian invasion... not some fantasy muslim OPness.
but yea... bring back jihads at start... by 1187 no matter where I'm playing ill likely be able to field 100k soldiers at the very least so those jihads wont do anything... early game however they spell fun.
I will never forget the most fun I ever had in this game, I was playing sicily and got 2 Jihads on me simultaneously, every major muslim nation from spain to khiva joined it... but just as I thought it was game over... HRE, France, England, Hungry, the pope, Croatia and castille joined up (they werent even allied to me so it was great)... it was the most amazing war Ive ever had, 12 years and hundreds of thousands of casualties, twice my warscore was in the -80s when refreshed french and HRE stacks got back in time... we were outnumbered but the enemy had greater distances to go. It was like a clash of civilizations... finally we were able to push them back and the Fatamids collapsed when the Sultan died in battle in year 12...
the games difficulty has gone waaaay down since the jihad nerf, BRING EM BACK!
since the patch things are bizzarro for me, Castille consistently winning spain and sicily consistently staying christian (mostly as genoa rather then Apulia though)... I honestly dont think fatamids are OP at all, its about 50/50 with either the Byz being dominant or the fatamids in the east... If anything its the seljuks, I rarely if ever see the fatamids beat up byz unless Armenia gets conquered... thats the crux, the very armenian invasion... not some fantasy muslim OPness.
but yea... bring back jihads at start... by 1187 no matter where I'm playing ill likely be able to field 100k soldiers at the very least so those jihads wont do anything... early game however they spell fun.
I will never forget the most fun I ever had in this game, I was playing sicily and got 2 Jihads on me simultaneously, every major muslim nation from spain to khiva joined it... but just as I thought it was game over... HRE, France, England, Hungry, the pope, Croatia and castille joined up (they werent even allied to me so it was great)... it was the most amazing war Ive ever had, 12 years and hundreds of thousands of casualties, twice my warscore was in the -80s when refreshed french and HRE stacks got back in time... we were outnumbered but the enemy had greater distances to go. It was like a clash of civilizations... finally we were able to push them back and the Fatamids collapsed when the Sultan died in battle in year 12...
the games difficulty has gone waaaay down since the jihad nerf, BRING EM BACK!
hard to say if the other muslims are balanced or not since the Fatimids attack them too and weaken them. The problems I see in my games are Fatimids, France and HRE being too powerful. They are too prone to gobble up their smaller neighbours.
Hmm, I'd say the same about Fatimids, Seljuk and HRE. I've never seen successful France, they manage not to lose much and dig abit in Iberia at best, but Seljuks are pretty nasty to all their neighbours, till they become Ill.
Give the whole dynasty the Gluttonous trait. It'll weaken them across the board without crippling them and make for an incredibly lame pun at the same time
Just in case, in later starts Saladin does exactly the same things as the Fatimids.
And the Pope usually replies with a Crusade for Andalusia.
With the Spanish kingdoms swearing fealty to the HRE.
Yes I'm mad.
And the Pope usually replies with a Crusade for Andalusia.
With the Spanish kingdoms swearing fealty to the HRE.
Yes I'm mad.
I think the biggest problem is the Muslim (and Horde) invasion CB. Taking every province in the de jure realm of the kingdom has many flaws. We all know how frustrating it is when the attacker occupies 5 counties and suddenly gets 30. I think it would work better if the CB only allows the taking of provinces occupies within the de jure realm. It is a problem if it grabs the whole de jure realm due to kingdom drift. With kingdom drift, you're pretty much giving the muslims and horde more land to grab when they invade you. Sometimes you might inherit land all the way in the east as England and you incorporated it into your kingdom. When the duchies drift into England, Muslims and the Horde can invade England from the Levant and take all of England.
In most games (lets say about 2/3) the Fatimid's do very well, grabbing parts of the Byzantine empire and such. How well they do against the Byzantines really depends on where they launch their early invasions - if they go for Anatolia, then they don't expand too quickly and the Byzantines can usually resist for a while. If they launch an invasion of Greece - well then, the Byzantines are struck a death blow.
However, in the last 1/3 of my games, the Fatimid's actually don't expand much at all. Some wars in Anatolia and Spain, maybe the odd attempt for Italy, but thats about it.
So generally I don't have a problem with them. They are powerful, but not unbeatably so.
However, in the last 1/3 of my games, the Fatimid's actually don't expand much at all. Some wars in Anatolia and Spain, maybe the odd attempt for Italy, but thats about it.
So generally I don't have a problem with them. They are powerful, but not unbeatably so.
I must be in the extreme minority here... I actually want them to give Jihads back to muslims earlier
since the patch things are bizzarro for me, Castille consistently winning spain and sicily consistently staying christian (mostly as genoa rather then Apulia though)... I honestly dont think fatamids are OP at all, its about 50/50 with either the Byz being dominant or the fatamids in the east... If anything its the seljuks, I rarely if ever see the fatamids beat up byz unless Armenia gets conquered... thats the crux, the very armenian invasion... not some fantasy muslim OPness.
but yea... bring back jihads at start... by 1187 no matter where I'm playing ill likely be able to field 100k soldiers at the very least so those jihads wont do anything... early game however they spell fun.
I will never forget the most fun I ever had in this game, I was playing sicily and got 2 Jihads on me simultaneously, every major muslim nation from spain to khiva joined it... but just as I thought it was game over... HRE, France, England, Hungry, the pope, Croatia and castille joined up (they werent even allied to me so it was great)... it was the most amazing war Ive ever had, 12 years and hundreds of thousands of casualties, twice my warscore was in the -80s when refreshed french and HRE stacks got back in time... we were outnumbered but the enemy had greater distances to go. It was like a clash of civilizations... finally we were able to push them back and the Fatamids collapsed when the Sultan died in battle in year 12...
the games difficulty has gone waaaay down since the jihad nerf, BRING EM BACK!
While I don't agree that Jihads should be brought back so soon, you do bring up a good point.
I've noticed more and more now that in fact, while Muslims are OP in the first century or so of the game, afterwards, it's the Christians who start OP-ing the Fatimids back (if we ignore the Mongol factor). I've seen games where HRE/France/Spain (if it survives)/Sicily/whatever start colonizing Africa by the late 1100s.
Essentially the balance between Muslim and Christian states is still not ideal.