Will Fatimids be Nerfed?

[Kelban]

The past 3 games I started as a count within the Byzantine Empire from 1066. Before 1100, the Fatimids decimated the Byzantine Empire in all 3 of these games by use of their incredibly overpowered Invasion CB. Usually they start a "Fatimid Invasion of Greece" despite the fact that the kingdom of Greece hasn't even been formed.

I think that something needs to be done to balance the Fatimids, particularly dealing with the Invasion mechanic. IMO, the Invasion CB should only be available to the Mongols and Aztecs. At the very least, make it harder for Muslims to use Invasion, since Christians need special papal approval to use it under restricted circumstances.

 

[SweetHalcyHS]

Muslims also need 500 piety, which isn't exactly easy to get. I think it works fine, although invading Greece is a bit tad alarming.

Perhaps adjust the AI to hate the Seljuks more, since the Romans are being rolled over anyway?

 

[Vovolov]

I'd suggest playing Project Balance for now. It fixes all this and more.

 

[Djieh]

Having differences between Christian and Muslim rulers seems to be the point of making both playable, I think. If the differences were only superficial, there would be no point in differentiating. As far as I know, Muslim rulers of that general time period were more geared towards expansion (or at least more successful at it). Also the ERE was having serious problems with them, look at their shrinking territory in later starting points. It is almost unavoidable for Muslims in the game to try to expand their influence, otherwise their unlanded relatives will give them serious problems concerning decadence.

 

[NoMoreSanity]

The main problem seems to be the Fatimids, who despite being on the verge of collapsing historically by the start of the game blob literally everywhere. Nubia, Abyssinia, Greece, Italy, even the Seljuks aren't safe from them in some games I've noticed. You don't even need to nerf the CB itself, just the Fatimids incredible strength and lack of civil wars at the start seems to be the main problem facing all the nations near them.

 

[Divi]

Having differences between Christian and Muslim rulers seems to be the point of making both playable, I think. If the differences were only superficial, there would be no point in differentiating. As far as I know, Muslim rulers of that general time period were more geared towards expansion (or at least more successful at it). Also the ERE was having serious problems with them, look at their shrinking territory in later starting points. It is almost unavoidable for Muslims in the game to try to expand their influence, otherwise their unlanded relatives will give them serious problems concerning decadence.

The differences are poorly done. They were also not "mostly geared towards conquest". The bulk of muslim expansion was over 200 years before game start and the only major turkish gains in Europe after that period were the Byzantine Empire in the 14th and 15th centuries. It also uses a succession mechanic that was purely used in the early modern ottoman empire. More conquest flexibility works, what SoI did is borderline a caricature with the ottoman style succession and the desert tribes of Sicily.

And the Fatimids were positively crumbling through the period; tey were this period's Austria-Hungary (slowly collapsing like a flan) and it took the efforts of one of the caliphas to even slow this down by, among other things, suppressing Druzism in Egypt. They're supposed to lose Syria to the Zengid sultans only 4 years after the game starts.

 

[Djieh]

The differences are poorly done. They were also not "mostly geared towards conquest". The bulk of muslim expansion was over 200 years before game start and the only major turkish gains in Europe after that period were the Byzantine Empire in the 14th and 15th centuries. It also uses a succession mechanic that was purely used in the early modern ottoman empire. More conquest flexibility works, what SoI did is borderline a caricature with the ottoman style succession and the desert tribes of Sicily.

And the Fatimids were positively crumbling through the period; tey were this period's Austria-Hungary (slowly collapsing like a flan) and it took the efforts of one of the caliphas to even slow this down by, among other things, suppressing Druzism in Egypt. They're supposed to lose Syria to the Zengid sultans only 4 years after the game starts.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of some changes that prevent the Fatimids from overrunning whatever they want to conquer or the Andalusian Muslims from defeating the Spanish kings easily (only to draw the attention of France and/or the HRE). But I don't think that giving everybody the same basic gameplay would make for an enthralling game. I will, however, gladly leave the in-depth discussion on what is historically acurate and what is nonsense to those more qualified than me.

I still keep forgetting Paradox fans tend to have a better grasp of history than me ...

 

[Kalderus]

In 1066, the Fatimids were in no condition to invade the Nile River's crocodiles let alone the Greeks.

 

[Casiru]

The Fatmids only beat the BYZ because they attack with or straight after the Seljuks, they are rather weak otherwise.
The main problem is we are not allowed to join the defense of invasions. I had the kingdom of Sicily invaded while playing Italy and I just have to watch it go. Took me 4 holy wars to regain the land.
If we could defend invasions the Fatmids wouldn't be able to blob into Greece like they do at the moment.
Ironically we can JOIN invasions, or at least mercenary ones. Having a 1500 unit merc company take over an Empire cause you joined the bankrupt war is pretty funny.

 

[A_Dane]

Muslims also need 500 piety, which isn't exactly easy to get. I think it works fine, although invading Greece is a bit tad alarming.

Perhaps adjust the AI to hate the Seljuks more, since the Romans are being rolled over anyway?

500 Piety is extremely easy to get. That Jihads can only occur after 1187 slowed it down somewhat, but it's still not really a problem getting to 500 piety.
It used to go down somewhat like this: Shia Jihad for either Sicily (mostly) or Aragon.
Shia Jihad succeeds.
Fatimids gain control with southern Italy
Fatimids use the prestige gained to launch an invasion of Greece
Fatimids succeed in taking Greece after some 4-5 years.
Fatimids gets replaced
New dynasty launch a Shia Jihad etc

You get the picture.


In my own game I've modded it so Invasions cost 2000 piety. It might seem a bit extreme, but it's easily abused when I play muslims, and I feel like invasions shouldn't just happen in every single generation - it should be something a bit more special..

 

[TheLionHeart]

People should really stop suggesting mods all the time on these suggestion threads. I for one rarely use mods since I prefer the vanilla's polish, and would rather actually getting it in the game than some mod.

 

[Tufto]

A simple fix would be to make the invasion CB only apply to kingdoms with which the invader has a land border- This would fix the Sicilian and Byzantine problem too. That said, the Fatimids are overpowered anyway.

 

[Jeltz]

Muslims also need 500 piety, which isn't exactly easy to get. I think it works fine, although invading Greece is a bit tad alarming.

A muslim ruler can quite easily earn 2000 to 3000 piety without any special focus on gaining it other than doing holy wars and being a hajjaj.

 

[Portal]

People should really stop suggesting mods all the time on these suggestion threads. I for one rarely use mods since I prefer the vanilla's polish, and would rather actually getting it in the game than some mod.

Project Balance introduces no new features and is extremely polished. It would be nice for this to get in the game, yes, but that doesn't make your criticism valid.

 

[A_Dane]

People should really stop suggesting mods all the time on these suggestion threads. I for one rarely use mods since I prefer the vanilla's polish, and would rather actually getting it in the game than some mod.

Personally I think this is most certainly an issue Paradox should look into. But this exact issue has been brought up atleast 6 times in the last couple of months, I'm pretty sure they're aware of it by now. Not that it's a bad thing reminding them though. However, it comes down to this: They'll either do something about it, or they won't. Until they do something about it, you'll either have to suck it up, find a mod, or mod it yourself. Not all people are aware of the modding scene, so it dosn't hurt to mention that there's tempoary solutions if you want them.

 

[TheLionHeart]

Project Balance introduces no new features and is extremely polished. It would be nice for this to get in the game, yes, but that doesn't make your criticism valid.

I have actually downloaded project balance, I found it to be way too harsh about holy wars and crown authority. CK+ is a little bit less tight about these things. I am definitely not the first one to admit that the base game has it's flaws, but seeing it gradually transform from a grotesque un-balanced mess into a beautiful butterfly is strangely a thing I love about CK2. I dunno I guess I'm just weird like that.

 

[Kalderus]

For the very reason of Fatimid OPness, I have decided to temporarily divert my current campaign towards the goal of permanently wiping out the Fatimid Sultanate. This is the second time this happened, since I started in Russia and midgame decided to put my mother on the Byzantine throne and thus inherited, just after a successful invasion of Greece decimated her.

 

[TheLionHeart]

For the very reason of Fatimid OPness, I have decided to temporarily divert my current campaign towards the goal of permanently wiping out the Fatimid Sultanate. This is the second time this happened, since I started in Russia and midgame decided to put my mother on the Byzantine throne and thus inherited, just after a successful invasion of Greece decimated her.

Now that's a Crusade worth fighting for. Deus vult, brother.

 

[Yakdast]

Why fix it? It's marvelous! You don't even need the Aztecs or Mongols when you have Fatimids running around.

If you build up knowing that they will inevitably invade (and they will), you may use the situation to take over new duchies for your sons.
I had a similar issue with Almoravids taking France. However I used it for my own advantage and split France between me (Kingdom of Germany) and Empire of Britannia (formed by Dunkelds).

 

[unmerged(281782)]

Odd, but I don't see total Fatimid dominance. True, in some games they get lucky and blob abit more, but in others they get crushed, just like HRE may fall apart in just 20 years or take over half the world. I've even seen Finland uniting all Russian land, annexing poor Poland and blobbing into Hungary, but where are cries "Nerf Pagans"?