Will D-Day Come Soon?

[unmerged(576)]

Originally posted by BiB
What u describe is a general ai problem, adding an event would fix nothing.

I know this is all very hard to code, but I sometimes think that developers have a fear of making a game too easy. Bring it on. I won't be able to take on an a uber-agressive AI (hell, my German campaign vs France came to an end early on when we locked horns just outside of Paris - damn those Belgians put up a fight delaying my advance), but others will.

 

[unmerged(3352)]

...So ok, now Im surprised again.

The AI is not capable of doing an invasion of France/Germany?

I mean...

Ah, better not to say anyting but this is really much.

 

[unmerged(11858)]

What is the point in playing then?

Once Germany defeats France, they can throw 100% against Russia without fear from the AI.

Germany is a popular nation to play, and if its only real opponents are France and Russia, then this game does not represent WW2 very well. The United States and England were very important in turning the tide of WW2. D-Day resulted in 50% of German armour being sent to this front. The British planned invasions as early as 1942 should Russia show signs of collapse.

This offensive should not be just a date trigger, but possibly an occupation trigger (should Moscow/Leningrad fall). Unfortunately, like EU2, it does seem that HoI will require a large community of editors to get a historic feel to the game. It is an excellent engine, but the scenarios do not give you a feel to history other then the nations are named the same as their historic counterparts.

EU2 had problems where historically powerful nations never EVER matched their abilities. There are plenty of triggers that can offer choices. Possibly in June 1944 you will be given a trigger that requires England to invade France (if falls) or suffers horrible relations with Russia (they were pretty pissed it took as long as 1944 to invade!). Also, the French would be mighty upset that the British abandoned them in 1940 after dragging them to war and not sending a single troop to help defend. AI's will never match human players, and triggers (with options so as to not drive players, but to guide the AI and Player) are the only way to do it, otherwize, you will have a game meant for those who don't care what they are doing, as long as they are doing what they want (which really wrecks it for those who love history).

Indeed, you should not be DIRECTED to follow history, but realistic THREATS should exist, and should you be Japan, you should expect the war in Europe to folow a 'similar' pattern if the same players take part. However, since this NEVER happens, even when the players and situation meet historic measures.

Should you leave France unguarded, the Allies would definitely take advantage of this. It is not a matter of historic determination, but the lack of historic plausibility or logic.

 

[unmerged(1492)]

Ya these forums are more like politics. There are 2 crowds here. One who wants historical accuracy, the other prefers free range. Its great that we have these sort of discussions

While im in favor of an event ONLY if the AI cannot be fixed. I would like to go on record with the guy somewhere above who said an Event should only be used if the AI continues to act like this on the western front. We will see how things turn out.

btw. Im totally in the latter free-range crowd. But I dont want to see it get too ridiculous.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Hortlund
...So ok, now Im surprised again.

The AI is not capable of doing an invasion of France/Germany?

I mean...

Ah, better not to say anyting but this is really much.

It is capable, it's just not very good at executing it.

 

[unmerged(3352)]

Originally posted by BiB
It is capable, it's just not very good at executing it.

BiB, just let me ask one question. I take it this issue is on the to fix-list? The short to fix-list that is.

 

[unmerged(1492)]

BiB speaketh no lie. The AI is very much capable handling its own in every theatre except this one blasted second front area in france. It literally does nothing in the channel. I dont know why. Maybe cause its so tied up elsewhere. Who knows. Lets hope they fix it.

Great discussion.

 

[Lord Hammer]

Re: Re: D-Day event

I think we'd all like to limit events if we can, the question is more one of, "why doesn't the AI invade?". If this is a problem to code, then I would strongly support an event, which could have a set of triggers, thus limiting its implementation. [/QUOTE] I agree, the allies should not just sit there while five fat drunken nazis conquer all of europe! Time will tell if it is code or other factors. I would wager it wouldn't happen the same way twice! We have nothing to fear, this puppy's in good hands

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Hortlund
BiB, just let me ask one question. I take it this issue is on the to fix-list? The short to fix-list that is.

Everything that needs fixing is on the to fix list evidently.

 

[unmerged(12007)]

Originally posted by 50cal
Ya these forums are more like politics. There are 2 crowds here. One who wants historical accuracy, the other prefers free range. Its great that we have these sort of discussions

Well, in my experience, the "free-range" people tend to not care about AI performance and attribute their own ahistorical success (such as Poland annexing Germany in 1938) to their own brilliance and prowess.

There's a huge difference between wanting reasonble historical parameters, and either historical straightjackets or no restrictions whatsoever.

Its not reasonable, for example, for Italy singlehandedly to overrun all British possessions in Africa except those in west Sub-Saharan Africa. Its not reasonable for the Japanese to declare war on the Dutch in 1938, and then invade Dutch possessions in the Western Hemisphere. Its not reasonable for the game to make China the power most deficient in manpower.

I know the AI has some capbilities. I've seen Free French units invade an Axis Argentina, although they only invaded Cape Horn and from there attempted to go nowhere else.

But, there are some serious problems with issues like containment, continuous fronts, use of Strategic Redeployment, uses of air units, invasions, and production decisions, all of which combine to result in what can only be described as ridiculous outcomes.

The only way for any kind of historicity to occur in this game is if the player chooses to play Britain. The reason that this is the only possibility for any kind of historicity in the game is that Britain is in the game as a substantial power the longest, and has the best ability, long term, to influence the course of events. (Note : this is a comment about how the game works, not an Anglophile political comment).

Watch the AAR board. Watch how many AARs written by players playing powers other than Britain will result in anything remotely historical. BiB's AAR and Johnny Canuck's AARs are what caused me to want to buy the game in the first place. I hope, with some AI beefing, feature enhancements, and economic model reworking, I can say in the future that the confidence I had in the game wasn't misplaced.

 

[unmerged(3352)]

Originally posted by BiB
Everything that needs fixing is on the to fix list evidently.

Yeah, but there seems to be some differences of opinion regarding what needs fixing...the world market for example. Thats why I asked.

 

[unmerged(576)]

Nice post, Maddog Hoek.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Yeah, but there seems to be some differences of opinion regarding what needs fixing...the world market for example. Thats why I asked.

That would be NDA material anyway.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Bolt
Well, in my experience, the "free-range" people tend to not care about AI performance and attribute their own ahistorical success (such as Poland annexing Germany in 1938) to their own brilliance and prowess.

There's a huge difference between wanting reasonble historical parameters, and either historical straightjackets or no restrictions whatsoever.

Its not reasonable, for example, for Italy singlehandedly to overrun all British possessions in Africa except those in west Sub-Saharan Africa. Its not reasonable for the Japanese to declare war on the Dutch in 1938, and then invade Dutch possessions in the Western Hemisphere. Its not reasonable for the game to make China the power most deficient in manpower.

I know the AI has some capbilities. I've seen Free French units invade an Axis Argentina, although they only invaded Cape Horn and from there attempted to go nowhere else.

But, there are some serious problems with issues like containment, continuous fronts, use of Strategic Redeployment, uses of air units, invasions, and production decisions, all of which combine to result in what can only be described as ridiculous outcomes.

The only way for any kind of historicity to occur in this game is if the player chooses to play Britain. The reason that this is the only possibility for any kind of historicity in the game is that Britain is in the game as a substantial power the longest, and has the best ability, long term, to influence the course of events. (Note : this is a comment about how the game works, not an Anglophile political comment).

Watch the AAR board. Watch how many AARs written by players playing powers other than Britain will result in anything remotely historical. BiB's AAR and Johnny Canuck's AARs are what caused me to want to buy the game in the first place. I hope, with some AI beefing, feature enhancements, and economic model reworking, I can say in the future that the confidence I had in the game wasn't misplaced.

Tried a UK game yet then ?

 

[unmerged(1492)]

aIm only gonna say this one last time. Then im logging out. Cuz actually, Ive posted more tonight then I have in the last 2 years on these forums. So here goes,


Find a way to get the AI to attack mainland france if germany is busy in the east. Find a way to get it to attack in larger numbers than 1 division. If this cannot be done, make an event triggered by the loss of Kiev-->Stalingrad-->Leningrad=D-DAY in 2 months. The AI then assembles (or just pops out of thin air)

I will accept nothing less. As mainly a german player, I have to feel like im fighting an adversary who fights back. Not one who just rolls over and plays dead. Thanks

See you all around.

Somebody should send this thread to the paradox programmers So they get a feel for what we are after in the europe war

 

[Jon Shafer]

IMO, a D-Day event is absurd.

That is, unless you include an "Naval Invasion of Denmark-Norway" event. And then a "Blitzkrieg through the Ardenne forest locking the French and much of the BEF in Belgium" event. And then a "Dunkirk Evacuation, France and Britain gain half their army back" event. And then a "Battle of Britain, Germany loses 1/2 its air force" event. And then an "Italy launches a failed invasion of Greece, Germany moves all its forces to Yugoslavian and Greek border" event. And then "Germany launches an invasion of the USSR too late in the year and gets stopped in December due to snow" event...

That having been said, I want the AI to beat my ass down with no mercy. If it could launch an invasion of France and make you run like mad to your mommy for whipping you so bad, then it would. As BiB so eloquently explained, an event won't change that.

The people who need to know our concerns read these threads. Fear not, Johan knows what's up.

 

[Lord Hammer]

50cal

pick...pick...pick... would you like some gruyere with your whine? Patience, all things come in time

 

[unmerged(576)]

Without "whiners" (or constructive critics, as I like to call them), games would never see patches nor improvements. Thank your lucky stars the likes of 50cal are willing to voice themselves. No one's been insulting or offensive here, just making their thoughts heard.

 

[Lord Hammer]

Originally posted by Trip
IMO, a D-Day event is absurd.

That is, unless you include an "Naval Invasion of Denmark-Norway" event. And then a "Blitzkrieg through the Ardenne forest locking the French and much of the BEF in Belgium" event. And then a "Dunkirk Evacuation, France and Britain gain half their army back" event. And then a "Battle of Britain, Germany loses 1/2 its air force" event. And then an "Italy launches a failed invasion of Greece, Germany moves all its forces to Yugoslavian and Greek border" event. And then "Germany launches an invasion of the USSR too late in the year and gets stopped in December due to snow" event...

Not to mention the inevitable i don't need to use my mouse anymore event Well said Trip!!!

 

[Lord Hammer]

Originally posted by whyamihere
Without "whiners" (or constructive critics, as I like to call them), games would never see patches nor improvements. Thank your lucky stars the likes of 50cal are willing to voice themselves. No one's been insulting or offensive here, just making their thoughts heard.