Will a science focus be the objectively optimal way to play (like almost every other 4x game)?

[Reman]

Since 4x games have created penalties for rushing early expansion, science has become the objectively best way to play most games at a high level. This is true for at least Civ 4, Civ 5, Galciv 3, Sins of a Solar Empire, Rise of Nations, and Empire Earth 2.

EU4 has shown us that a simple "Ahead of time" penalty can drastically curtain this. Instead of gearing your entire empire to maximize science, you can make strategic decisions to prioritize certain tech groups if a small lead would give you an edge.

I really like EU's design. Does anybody know if they're bringing this to Stellaris in some form?

 

[Beric]

There is no "ahead of time" penalty. There is no neighbor bonus. Technology costs increase based on population, but not linearly, so having a larger empire is still always better for more tech. So basically, if you specialize in tech you will have a large edge in technology by the end of the game, just like every other 4X. The only question is whether the sacrifices you have to make going for an all-tech build will counteract that. I’m not entirely convinced they will, but I guess we’ll have to see for ourselves.

Tech builds being OP isn't as big of a deal to me in this game as I intend to go for a roleplay style, but I can definitely see some people being annoyed by this.

 

[swiftsvre]

You can also rack up scores of tech points by going through space battle debris. If you do a lot of fighting you should be able to alleviate a lower science output that way to some degree at least.

 

[Chaos_TLW]

There is no "ahead of time" penalty. There is no neighbor bonus. Technology costs increase based on population, but not linearly, so having a larger empire is still always better for more tech. So basically, if you specialize in tech you will have a large edge in technology by the end of the game, just like every other 4X. The only question is whether the sacrifices you have to make going for an all-tech build will counteract that. I’m not entirely convinced they will, but I guess we’ll have to see for ourselves.

Tech builds being OP isn't as big of a deal to me in this game as I intend to go for a roleplay style, but I can definitely see some people being annoyed by this.

The cost actually appears to be linear-ish after 10 pops, increasing 2% every additional pop, at least according to the discussion page for Technology in the Wiki.

 

[stedix1991]

This game allows you to "buy research" a lot more than say, Civ 5. In Stellaris if you're swimming in energy credits you can simply refuse to build energy buildings and build more research buildings. In Civ 5 there were only so many science buildings you could choose to build or not build.

 

[Plague109]

Keep in mind the random nature of technology in this game. So while you CAN gain more tech than your neighbor they may research a very important laser upgrade long before you see it, placing them ahead in an arms race.

 

[StarGrazer]

This game allows you to "buy research" a lot more than say, Civ 5

It also allows you to "buy research" by paying for all those sweet ships, going to some "parties" and reap all that dead ship research. I wonder if purging some pop will give you some research on how to "befriend" them quicker. Maybe some fallen empires can be "persuaded" into giving some research away?

 

[Plague109]

Maybe some fallen empires can be "persuaded" into giving some research away?

We'll give them an offer they can't refuse, if you catch my drift.

 

[208]

It also allows you to "buy research" by paying for all those sweet ships, going to some "parties" and reap all that dead ship research.

War is the continuation of science by other means?

 

[Beric]

The cost actually appears to be linear-ish after 10 pops, increasing 2% every additional pop, at least according to the discussion page for Technology in the Wiki.

That's interesting. Definitely makes population no longer a major factor after around 100 people or so.

 

[Plague109]

100 people is about early midgame-ish judging from the Blorg stream. Hard to judge how this will play without playing the game though.

 

[sethfc]

I believe all focus's are pretty optimal in this, as in they all work fine.
To expand on that, pacificistic and exploration focused approaches work fine, with you being able to get plenty of tech to compete, while getting bonuses from events.
Militarists can rapidly tech up via salvage, and constant warfare (war happiness anyone?)
Spiritualists have unique techs, so while they don't have a tech bonus, they have their own options in addition to a naturally more stable empire (due to happiness, and their governments having divergence reducing effects) so they can both have higher output (due to happiness giving percentage bonuses) and a larger empire (and therefore more total output)

Essentially focusing on science in and of itself (as in raw science output) isn't the only strategy to tech up, and you don't actually 'need' more tech to win either, as you can have half as much total tech as another empire, but have a larger, more stable empire able to field a larger fleet and still win, also due to salvage an empire with a tech advantage may see the gap closed rapidly by anyone who salvages post battle. With wars having limited stakes (you can only annex so many planets per war) any empire of a size above 4 worlds is essentially safe from being totally wiped in a single war, and so they can salvage tech and research for a minimum of 5 years (truce time) between conflicts, which gives them a chance to get more combat techs from the wreckage.

I personally feel Paradox has done a good job from what we've seen of balancing, but of course we'll have to see how it works out in game may 9th.

 

[Ysbaddaden]

One interesting aspect not to over look is that in federations don't you share tech? or at least tech relating to ship design?

 

[sethfc]

One interesting aspect not to over look is that in federations don't you share tech? or at least tech relating to ship design?

The federation president can design ships for the fed fleet using the technology of all empires within the federation.

 

[Hertzila]

One interesting aspect not to over look is that in federations don't you share tech? or at least tech relating to ship design?

I think it was that the federate fleet can have the best tech from all the members.

Edit: Ninja'd. Darn my spellchecking tendencies!

 

[jaredstanko]

i remain unconcerned because the tech available in this game appears to be a lovely combination of not overpowered and also interesting.

every other 4x game has a research problem because it scales poorly and is uninteresting. all the techs are the same any your power gain is quadratic.

in stellaris, from what ive seen, tech power is pretty simple, but everything you research adds more and more that your empire can do, in fun and interesting ways. tech cost scales with empire power and the powers you get from other ethos and traits match up quite well with research bonuses. i expect research to not be overpowered. large empires wont neccisarily get toooo much more research than small empires, and tech focused races will probably be evenly matched with other empires with unique and interesting bonuses, seeing as they are sacraficing unique and interesting bonuses of their own in order to research them

 

[Balkri]

If you are asking about the classical "rush libraries/labs" type of buildings, probably it will not mather since adding too much will just cripple your economy, and as side effect your military, and if a not so friendly neighbour, with less tech but best economy and bigger fleet see this they could find the window to attack you.

And if you are asking about traits and government that add tech bonus... 20% of 5 is not much, so not really big early game impact. The mayor factor is population. The bigger the population of your empire, the more expensive the tech will become, but also your economy could be better the bigger your pop is.

And don't forget the KEY factor, this is not Civilization in space. You can't just go stomping the other civilizations with worst tech taking city after city. All that you take need to be taken via a peace treaty, that not always will end in "full annexation"

 

[brn4meplz]

I've never felt outclassed in any other 4x games but smaller more technologically advanced nations/empires. As long as I can maintain the city count in civ(as per happiness modifiers) I always prefer to have more cities then better science. Those cities at some point benefit me enough in science and the multiple production queues usually lets me murder smaller players in warfare

I'm sure there is a fine line somewhere but I've never actually brushed against it in civ. (Ok maybe civ4 with the "Colony" modifier for cities off continent came pretty close there)

 

[wingren013]

Given that we just watched the Blorg, an economically powerful but technologically backward empire beat up their neighbors I think its safe to say that Tech isn't the answer to everything.

 

[Hertzila]

Paradox in general has been pretty good with taking the economics into account and siding with the idea that a larger, steadier economy beats bleeding-edge science.
"Better to have enough flintlocks for all the troops rather than the best breech-loaders for a small fraction of the troops."