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cegorach

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robw963 said:
You're quite right. I appreciate your knowledge about this stuff...I'll admit it becomes confusing for me.
It really is. The problem is that:

- during the PRL the Second Republic was smeared to unbelievable levels so works from that time are very biased,
- in the Third Republic (now) sometimes it was/is the opposite,
- political rivalry continued in the exile as well,
- the ruling elites were as usual blamed for everything in the usual Polono-centrist fashion or were cleared of all charges - little between both stances,
- foreign observers, writers, historians were thrown into all this or simply ignored everything and wrote their own stories (sometimes really horrid works not worth the paper they were printed on),
- the reality of those times was incredibly complicated,
- we are still receiving more sources, data, documents adding more to the puzzle as if it was not difficult enough already...
- everything written abroad is usually delayed by circa one decade - except in Russian Federation where it is delayed by 30-40 years,

In other words - welcome to the reality of the Second Republic - now you really are screwed... :D



For now the best English language work I can actually propose is 'the Heart of Europe' by Norman Davies which offers some incredibly useful insight - I have read pretty many works in English so I can recommend that with a degree of certainty it is worth the effort.

Naturally my timeline is a fantasy. Piłsudski IRL died in 1935, so his presence in the game at all is a giant stretch.

My theory behind my drive toward right-wing extermism is a projection of the direction that pre-war Poland seemed to be heading.

Polish propaganda
Propaganda is exactly what it is - propaganda. Statism, national pride etc it pretty much understandable if you are literally bringing back country from ashes. Certainly the general mood, the general situation of the interbellum highlighted some specific trends present everywhere.
Yet it is not the same even if similarly looking.

, foreign policy, the nasty business with Czechoslovakia,
The problems with Czechoslovakia are a bit... more complicated. It was a hostile country, a local rival and much material for a conflict existed in the relation with it. The fact that it was Czechoslovakia which was targeted first and the fact that noone had any real interest in dealing with two sides of the conflict (50 years of silence or worse can be a problem if you are trying to work out who was right and why noone probably was).

the bravado against Hitler,
I have explained why there was hardly any other choice to achieve anything - especially taking the knowledge of those people into the consideration.
At least there was no 'Warszawa' SS Panzer Division - they wouldn't be shooting at birds for sure...
Sometimes bravado is the only right stance you can take.

the power trip ego of Smigly-Rydz (verging on cult of personality),
Actually Rydz was a really bad choice for such a leader figure - shy and modest person without much charisma - which was another nail to the failure of the OZON, but the problem was someone had to replace Piłsudski - that was the logic of the pilsudskite movement based on popular support to 'the Old Man' himself.
If not him it would be someone else, it was supposed to be Walery Slawek , but was pretty much pushed to the margin (a terrible loss in my opinion - the man was almost a crystal clean).
Rydz was nominated the GISZ because he had no political ambitions - funny how things can change.

Apparently from the trimvirate of Mościcki - Beck and Śmigły only he was seen as a possible 'substitute' for Piłsudski.

The difference was that propaganda became more noisy after 1935 and that Piłsudski would kill with his stare (or some extremely vulgar, soldier's insult) anyone even trying to propose to make him some sort of a guru (he never abandoned this certain anti-establishment attitude he developed for his entire life).
Perhaps that was because Rydz wasn't popular when he took his share of power and had to be for the colonel government's political system to work - so the propaganda machine had to do what is could.

However it is a mistake to think it was just the usual quest for power and political rivalry.
Those people simply belived the times are hard and only them can guide Poland through the storm - that is because they were resistence leaders, former fighters so people who believed in a swift action and taking hard choices noone else could take while they saw political debate as relatively fruitless.




So the form might be similar in some forms, but it was closer to the New deal style propaganda than to 'Ein Volk, ein reich, ein fuhrer' stuff.


The respect the military traditionally had/has in Poland also played its part, so did the cult of heroism which produced the generation which later survived some most incredible hardship.
It is arguable if it was necessary, but perhaps there was no other choice - III Republic-style constitution provided much instability especially if mixed with political partizanship (which was the case) - some people really felt that Poland cannot afford risking it with barely a year of relative peace so they moved in...

Kemalism overall can be considered the most similar example.

presence of nationalist organizations, etc.
And where those were not present ? The situation was indeed tense, but like on a frying pan everything was accelerated political, social, ethnical conflicts - the bottom line is the state acted to strike at extremism and that the only disloyal ethnical group were Germans (majority did, exceptions didn't - like admiral Unrug for example).

Had Germany not defeated Poland so early in the war, I suspect Poland would have become more and more right wing...at least that's the basis of this AAR.
Again for the purpose of this AAR it is your choice alone - except that the 'bolshevik' and "German agent' Piłsudski would be laughing at anyone calling him right-wing.
Actually I personally consider him along with Jan Zamoyski and possibly Adam Czartoryski one of most impressive political minds in Polish history.
 

unmerged(24320)

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robw963: Since there was a question about ministers earlier..

considering your appointed task of painting the world a lovely butter yellow, modding a minister to give you that mentioned + 25 % manpower should be eminently acceptable ! ! :cool:
 

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It could be the General's clone, coming back in time to lead Poland to eternal greatness!
 

robw963

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GhostWriter said:
considering your appointed task of painting the world a lovely butter yellow, modding a minister to give you that mentioned + 25 % manpower should be eminently acceptable ! ! :cool:
Just for clarity, I haven't ruled out puppeting overall, but I am keen on a butter yellow EUROPE. :)
 

unmerged(112641)

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robw963 said:
Just for clarity, I haven't ruled out puppeting overall, but I am keen on a butter yellow EUROPE. :)
Why just europe? As I got hold of a translator here:
Czemuż by zatrzymywać we szrankach europejskich armię zwycięską, jakoby można podbić jeszcze wiele ziem? Przecie gdy dasz im czas, aby mogli zebrać siły, zniszczą cię jednym strzałem, ale jakoby jeśli uderzysz po zaledwie miesiącu po ostatecznej wygranej, zostawiając wszelkie plaże zastawione żołnierzami, powinieneś zaatakować tych, którzy pozostali na twej liście narodów, co przyniosłoby twemu narodowi chwałę i wielki zapis na karcie historii nawet jakoby byś, boże uchowaj, zostal pokonany przez hordy tyranów sowieckich, lub takoże innych narodów, lecz także nakazuję ci zaatakować bolszewicką zarazę, aby odzyskać ziemię zabraną nam w latach dwudziestych...
 

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I hate to break it to you, but I can't speak Polish to save my life. Although if I understand it right (I'm assuming you were talking to me LordSlowpoke?) you went out of your way to use a translator to send me a message in Polish...that's very crafty! You'd be horrified what reverse translating it back into English does...maybe just easier to say it again in English. Also curious about your code there...what's that all about?
 

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no i do not think he used translator...
it is very... theatrical version of polish so i do not think translator will ever be able to translate this
neither will anyone without knowlegde of both theatrical english or polish will be able to make exact translation besides not all words are written with polish symbols so translator will... you know...
so i will put it like this:

Why do keep, in european borders, when army is victorius? Give them time and they'll regroup and brake you with one shot. If you strike, at very month after battle, leaving all shores with guardsmen, you should conquer all those on your list of nations, this shall reward your nation with a supreme glory, and a very writing in history, even if, god prevent, you meet your end at soviet tyrants sword, or anyone who dares, but I command you to assault bolshevik sicknes and thou take back all the land they took in twenties

to put it easier:
he wants you to crush soviets right away
 

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I find it curious to be rushed by someone named "LordSlowpoke" :eek:
 

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LordSlowpoke said:
Czemuż by zatrzymywać we szrankach europejskich armię zwycięską, jakoby można podbić jeszcze wiele ziem? Przecie gdy dasz im czas, aby mogli zebrać siły, zniszczą cię jednym strzałem, ale jakoby jeśli uderzysz po zaledwie miesiącu po ostatecznej wygranej, zostawiając wszelkie plaże zastawione żołnierzami, powinieneś zaatakować tych, którzy pozostali na twej liście narodów, co przyniosłoby twemu narodowi chwałę i wielki zapis na karcie historii nawet jakoby byś, boże uchowaj, zostal pokonany przez hordy tyranów sowieckich, lub takoże innych narodów, lecz także nakazuję ci zaatakować bolszewicką zarazę, aby odzyskać ziemię zabraną nam w latach dwudziestych...
Extremely funny to read :rofl: but I understand what you wrote. Which translator you use? :D
 

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WIELKOPOLSKA - Phase 2 - Industrial Status - 10/13/39

October 13, 1939 - Industrial Status:

My 30 day operational plan to destroy German production capability is drawing to a close. I'll now to to shift my attention towards German victory point locations to develop an efficient battle plan to complete my conquest of Germany.



I'm going to need to shift my map westward!
 

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CthulhuPL said:
Extremely funny to read :rofl: but I understand what you wrote. Which translator you use? :D
Nah, I know a few guys out there, and so; it has been made. I meant a translator as a human one. :p
Edit: I got it done as a .txt file and just copypasted. Enough said already. :rofl:
 

unmerged(63886)

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Beutaiful AAR! Really love the gfx work! I spotted a polish flag... if you ain't the creator of that, I think I did that one a long while back, but uncertain, could have been anoter flag hanging over the reichstag. :p

One question though, which font do you use in your writing and how you create those cool "talking-boxes" (excuse my poor english dictionary) with the sweet shadows? (Know PS quite a bit, but haven't tried that yet)

Keep it up! :)
 

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TeutonburgerW said:
Beutaiful AAR! Really love the gfx work! I spotted a polish flag... if you ain't the creator of that, I think I did that one a long while back, but uncertain, could have been anoter flag hanging over the reichstag. :p

One question though, which font do you use in your writing and how you create those cool "talking-boxes" (excuse my poor english dictionary) with the sweet shadows? (Know PS quite a bit, but haven't tried that yet)
Thanks! I made the Polish flag over the Reichstag with a little Photoshop work...I'm sure it's been done before but this one I made my on my own because I get some kind of weird enjoyment out of making art like that.

The font in the Piłsudski dialog is Verdana 9 px aliased (no smoothing or anti-aliasing). Drop shadows for the dialog boxes are a pretty straightfoward effect...there are a ton of effects you can create by layer which can be saved as styles and re-used. Photoshop ships with a set of pre-made styles but it's more fun to create your own.
 
Last edited:

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robw963 said:
Thanks! I made the Polish flag over the Reichstag with a little Photoshop work...I'm sure it's been done before but this one I made my on my own because I get some kind of weird enjoyment out of making art like that.

The font in the Piłsudski dialog is Verdana 9 px aliased (no smoothing or anti-aliasing). Drop shadows for the dialog boxes are a pretty straightfoward effect...there are a ton of effects you can create by layer which can be saved as styles and re-used. Photoshops ships with a set of pre-made styles but it's more fun to create your own.

Do you still have the PSD file for that pic? I'd love to improve my own skills and yours are obviously better than mine.
 

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Akaki said:
A little curio: Here's how Piłsudski sounded like :)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM1rzHUM6Gs

Recorded in 1924, it begins with "I'm standing in front of some weird tube..." :)
I used the exact same audio in THIS post (right under Józef's head). Could one of our Polish friends possibly translate what he's saying?....beyond the weird tube comment i mean.

If you look hard enough there are a few stray Piłsudski videos online as well.
 

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robw963 said:
I used the exact same audio in THIS post (right under Józef's head). Could one of our Polish friends possibly translate what he's saying?....beyond the weird tube comment i mean.

If you look hard enough there are a few stray Piłsudski videos online as well.
Quite difficult since it is sometimes archaic in wording and there are two moments where I couldn't identify two words he was using.

One moment please.