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PaulMClem

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There has been a lot of talk about wide/tall empires recently. Seems to be a general feeling that 1.5/Utopia will help those looking to build tall. As someone still relatively new to strategy games can I ask a couple of questions:
  1. What do you define as Wide and Tall i.e. planet numbers etc?
  2. Do you think 1.5/Banks will help one or both to be more reliable/effective and enjoyable strategies?
Cheers,

PaulC.
 

henzington

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Wide in Stellaris is having many planets in sectors especially given core system bonuses being added in 1.5

Tall will be aided by the new accession perks like habitats but I would still say wide is more powerful just having access to more minerals and energy from more planets.
 

kviiri

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For 1: Wide and tall are broad categories of development strategies more than fixed numbers of planets. Wide strategies are ones that prioritize expanding one's borders over local development (quantity over quality, so to say), while tall strategies are ones that prioritize local development over stretching the borders (quality over quantity).

How this translates to the number of planets depends a lot on the situation: for example, even a player trying to play wide might find themselves in a spot where they can't expand before unlocking more tech (to cross a galaxy arm gap, for example). However, since only core systems can be administrated effectively by the player, a passable rule-of-thumb is this: if you don't need sectors to remain competitive, it's tall.

For 2: Banks will introduce orbital habitats, ringworlds and terraforming (certain) uninhabitable planets, allowing one to cram more pops inside a single system. Since cores are per-system, not per-world, this allows a player desiring to be tall to cram much more inside their limited borders. Furthermore, the unity/traditions mechanic penalizes empires by size (I'm not sure if that's per-system, per-world or per-pop) which makes smaller empires more efficient with that.
 

Alblaka

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What do you define as Wide and Tall i.e. planet numbers etc?
Tall vs Wide is NOT 'few planets' vs 'many planets', in Stellaris.
According to Wiz and to everything seen from Utopia so far, in Stellaris, wide means many systems with few planets, whereas tall means few systems with many planets (by means of Ringworlds, Habitats, Terraforming, etc).
 

PaulMClem

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According to Wiz and to everything seen from Utopia so far, in Stellaris, wide means many systems with few planets, whereas tall means few systems with many planets (by means of Ringworlds, Habitats, Terraforming, etc).
Ah, ok. So in Stellaris terms, Tall means densely populated, relatively small areas of space. Wide is vast oceans of potentially empty space with populations dotted around?
 

WhiteWeasel

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It's hard to define tall, but at least the way I play it in my modded (and thus advice here may be invalid in utopia) saves is that once I carved out a more or less decent seat in the galaxy in the early game, I expand slowly but build up my worlds really well. Pile on buildings, get star ports to level 6 When I can, and of course dedicate a couple of worlds to research to stay ahead of the planets/population number tech penalty. And thanks to terraforming, even though I only take up like 1/5 of the galaxy, I have plenty of room to expand without ever needing to push my borders.

To me, a key note in tall vs wide is that you don't start tall. You get to a certain size and power where you more or less have your seat carved out for yourself, and then you choose to either channel your resources outwards or upwards.
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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The terms derive from cities - a wide city spreads out over the terrain. A tall city focuses on building taller and taller buildings instead. In empire-building games, building Tall means making investments in your existing colonies rather than acquiring more colonies. In Stellaris currently, there's a fairly strict limit in how much you can accomplish by doing so. In Utopia, there will be less limits on doing so - at least once you get to the late stages of technology. Additionally, both large and small empires will be able to progress their unity systems at similar rates- a small empire will likely even be able to do so faster. Effectively, this favors tall empires, since it's progression that is not improved by expansion.

Additionally, a Consumer Goods mechanic is being introduced that will affect resource income and reduce the resource benefit empires get from expanding, somewhat penalizing wide strategies.
 

AndragonLea

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Wide will always be the more powerful alternative in Stellaris, unless Paradox cranks the faction/rebellion and penalties for distance from capitol up to the 9nth degree.

Tall play isn't as potentially powerful as wide play and it wasn't intended that way.

It's either an alternative playstyle for people that want it (and I do) or a way for someone to compete when bad start locations or neighbours have strangled their expansion - they still get to improve and be a factor by making more out of what little they've been given, but they can't and shouldn't get more out of 10 planets than their enemy can out of 30.

Otherwise there'd be no reason to take planets in the first place, and where would that leave us?
 
Last edited:

The_Kru

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The most important difference in wide vs. tall i think will be the availability of strategic ressources and orbital mining/research stations.

Wide empires will cover a lot of space (pun not intended) with a higher chance of strategic ressources or ressource rich systems.
Tall empires will have either a small core space around their homeworld or several enclaves all over the galaxy.
 

Ezumiyr

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Tall vs Wide is NOT 'few planets' vs 'many planets', in Stellaris.
According to Wiz and to everything seen from Utopia so far, in Stellaris, wide means many systems with few planets, whereas tall means few systems with many planets (by means of Ringworlds, Habitats, Terraforming, etc).

It's exactly that.

Wiz confirmed that playing with few planets is still less powerful than playing with many planets (Unity won't allow you to concentrate on a few well-developped planets), but in Banks 1.5 the empires will have more opportunities to stay relevant on the galactic stage even if you can't expand your borders.

We probably also need to mention that some players used the tall/wide distinction in relation with a specific strategy in Stellaris : remaining little at the beginning at the game, in order to have a tech boost (or rather, to not get the tech malus that come with expanding your empire), and thus being "tall", then going "wide" by expanding thanks to that technological advantage. Personally I don't think it's such a good idea to do that and I don't think that tall/wide are appropriate terms here, but that's how I saw them used about Stellaris so far.
 

Ixal

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Stellaris has very few mechanics that gives advantages to tall enpires and Banks will not change that. If anything, wide will get even more powerful with Utoipia and its megastructures (Habitats will help wide empires much more than tall ones and the requirements for ringworlds are so specific that wide empires have a much better chance to be able to build them. Not to mention that wide empires have a lot higher mineral income and thus can afford more of them)
 
Last edited:

kviiri

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Wide will always be the more powerful alternative in Stellaris, unless Paradox cranks the faction/rebellion and penalties for distance from capitol up to the 9nth degree.

Yep, and this is by design as far as I know. However, Wiz has stated an intent to reduce the gap - not only to make tall play somewhat competitive, but to also make it more interesting. A tall empire will still fall short of the power of a wide empire given enough time.
 

Alblaka

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Ah, ok. So in Stellaris terms, Tall means densely populated, relatively small areas of space. Wide is vast oceans of potentially empty space with populations dotted around?
Yep.
And that missunderstanding is where 95% of the forum's 'Tall/Wide Discussions' come from, because most people reference Civlization, where Tall/Wide is strictly the number of cities.
And then there's the kind of people who claim that Stellaris cannot have it's own, different, definition of Tall/Wide and should change it's mechanics to adopt to how Civ did it, because they 'did it first'. *shrug*
We probably also need to mention that some players used the tall/wide distinction in relation with a specific strategy in Stellaris : remaining little at the beginning at the game, in order to have a tech boost (or rather, to not get the tech malus that come with expanding your empire), and thus being "tall", then going "wide" by expanding thanks to that technological advantage. Personally I don't think it's such a good idea to do that and I don't think that tall/wide are appropriate terms here, but that's how I saw them used about Stellaris so far.
Oh god, and now we got a new definition of tall/wide WITHIN the same game?
Let's stop that in it's roots and plainly agree that early game expansion vs tech is instead labelled... well, how about expansion vs tech. Good enough to me.

Why not tall and wide?

Because both takes the same ressources, and you cannot invest the same bit of mineral twice.
Of course, if you're big, you can 'do both tall and wide' as good as respectively focussed tall or wide empires, but that still means you're going "50% tall, 50% wide" in terms of your ressource investments.

Therefore 'tall and wide' is effectively 'both' and 'neither'.
 

Kayden_II

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The Stellaris-Definitions of "tall" and "wide" aren't really convincing since in both Cases, You do the same Thing: Colonizing more Worlds, Which includes the Building of more Habitats ...
The only Difference is the Circumstance, that the same Amount of Colonies/Habitats are located in a few Star-Systems ("tall" (Stellaris)) or in many Ones ("wide" (Stellaris)) ...
It's a Fata Morgana until You're looking into the Star-System-View instead of the Galaxy-One ...

What do you define as Wide and Tall i.e. planet numbers etc?
Wide = Having many Worlds, Which are relatively lowly developed, Which means their Buildings are relatively lowly upgraded ...
Tall = Having few Worlds, Which are relatively highly developed, Which means their Buildings are relatively highly upgraded ...

That are my Definitions and I would rather see, that You colonize a new World, You start with 1 Tile + 1 POP, You have to invest into your Colony to get a second Tile, Which would randomly generated with Nothing or a native Resource and after You've got a second POP, You have the Permission to invest into your third Tile and so On and so On and so On ...

Currently, It's way too easy to play "wide" (my Definition) since You colonize a new World and Let your POPs breed, so that You have in no Time a fully populated World, in Which all POPs are harvesting all its native Resources, because with the Exception of Hydroponic Farms, You don't really have to invest Something to achieve this Aim ...

Do you think 1.5/Banks will help one or both to be more reliable/effective and enjoyable strategies?
I don't know (yet).
 

Alblaka

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The Stellaris-Definitions of "tall" and "wide" aren't really convincing since in both Cases, You do the same Thing: Colonizing more Worlds, Which includes the Building of more Habitats ...
The only Difference is the Circumstance, that the same Amount of Colonies/Habitats are located in a few Star-Systems ("tall" (Stellaris)) or in many Ones ("wide" (Stellaris)) ...
It's a Fata Morgana until You're looking into the Star-System-View instead of the Galaxy-One ...
This view is exactly why people tend to not grasp the Wide/Tall concept Wiz is implementing.
Yes, of course, you can expand via colonization of remote systems whilst 'playing tall', just as you can build habitats whilst 'playing wide'. But by doing so you are actually not doing the 'playing x' part to 100%.
Buildings habitats is confirmed to take time and extensive amount of ressources (minerals).
Conversely, for the same amount of minerals you can colonize several new worlds with colony ships instead. (Which is a step necessary after a Habitat finishes construction anyways)
Or, you could declare war, seize a few planets and use the minerals to rebuild/increase your fleet.

The key difference is that Habitats are 'less cost-effective', but can be used to increase your planet count whilst expanding 'inward' (or would you prefer 'upward', aka tall), whereas the latter 'more effective' approach requires you to extend your borders (thus expanding 'outward'), either by grabbing planets not yet settled (something impossible past the middle game) or by conquest/vassalization.

Wide = Having many Worlds, Which are relatively lowly developed, Which means their Buildings are relatively lowly upgraded ...
Tall = Having few Worlds, Which are relatively highly developed, Which means their Buildings are relatively highly upgraded ...

The issue why this doesn't work is because you ALWAYS upgrade your buildings, completely regardless of whether you're going tall or wide. There is no reason ever not to, as long as you got avaible ressources. And once all are upgraded, the planet hits a cap cannot be 'developed' further.

Planets are not affected by the choice 'do I get many planets or do I get more developed planets', since all planets will end up developed in due time. And, conversely to other games like Civilization, this point in time is actually reached within the span of the game. (Theoretically, in Civ, you can reach a 'cap' of city as well, namely a city that has the maximum amount of pops it can somehow effectively feed and happi-fy plus all buildings. The difference is, in Civ you will rarely even reach that state with one city, much less with multiple ones. Whilst in Stellaris you 'cap' planets frequently (by tech limits), and even a 'maximum' cap is achieved after one or two centurys.)

That are my Definitions and I would rather see, that You colonize a new World, You start with 1 Tile + 1 POP, You have to invest into your Colony to get a second Tile, Which would randomly generated with Nothing or a native Resource and after You've got a second POP, You have the Permission to invest into your third Tile and so On and so On and so On ...
Which is a fine concept. But, rather obviously, one that Wiz doesn't intend to implement. Which means that, as nice as it is, it's completely irrelevant for Stellaris.

Currently, It's way too easy to play "wide" (my Definition) since You colonize a new World and Let your POPs breed, so that You have in no Time a fully populated World, in Which all POPs are harvesting all its native Resources, because with the Exception of Hydroponic Farms, You don't really have to invest Something to achieve this Aim ...
Yep, because fully developing a planet, as described above, is not designed to be 'a special objective', but just the default course of the game.
 

PaulMClem

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The issue why this doesn't work is because you ALWAYS upgrade your buildings, completely regardless of whether you're going tall or wide. There is no reason ever not to, as long as you got avaible ressources
Have to agree. Any strategy which would ignore easy, cheap building upgrades simply to fit in with a supposed strategy definition which requires low development is a confused strategy. I still see Wide as fully developed planets, just a low number in relation to size of space covered by an empire. Tall is also fully developed, but a higher concentration in a smaller space.
 

AndragonLea

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Have to agree. Any strategy which would ignore easy, cheap building upgrades simply to fit in with a supposed strategy definition which requires low development is a confused strategy. I still see Wide as fully developed planets, just a low number in relation to size of space covered by an empire. Tall is also fully developed, but a higher concentration in a smaller space.

The idea isn't to have a lot of planets with buildings that are intentionally worse than would you could have versus few planets with better buildings.

The idea is to have few planets with many tiles and favourable modifiers and so much more research that you are on power plants 5 when the AI with more planets is still on 2.
It's about becoming so much better in technology that the wide empire just can't upgrade the buildings to the same extend, with a secondary effect being that - as you do not spend resources on colony ships and building tier 1 buildings on other planets - you end up having your planets fully developed much faster.

You snowball in technology and heavily use protocols, governors and assist research scientists to make your planets much more efficient pop for pop and planet for planet than a person that goes wide.

That does actually work up to the point where you hit repeating research - the AI will then catch up in building technologies.

This is why most "tall" strategies have some point where you use your huge tech advantage and start going wide, too.
 

Alblaka

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Have to agree. Any strategy which would ignore easy, cheap building upgrades simply to fit in with a supposed strategy definition which requires low development is a confused strategy. I still see Wide as fully developed planets, just a low number in relation to size of space covered by an empire. Tall is also fully developed, but a higher concentration in a smaller space.

Arguably, since both sides of the definition contain 'fully developed', you might that part from the definition in first place, unless you find some weird strategy where you play neither tall, nor wide, AND have non-developed planets.
 

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governors
On that theme. I currently have a cap of 10 leaders but have 5 core systems, 2 sectors, 3 researchers, 2 science ships and an admiral covering one combined fleet. That needs more than 10 leaders. As such I have some of my core systems without a Governor. Is this a disaster and how easy is it to up the Leader cap?