Why we need espionage

[PalmettoExplorer14]

The espionage system in Imperium Galactica 2 was one of the better ones I have come across. It was nice and simple but also effective. You could have up to 12 spies each requiring a spy base building. They had levels and stats and that affected their success rate on missions of increasing difficulty, from acquiring empire info, sabotaging ships and assassinating leaders.

This was similar to what was done in Master of Orion (especially the remake).

I'll have give that game a try, but in addition to espionage and gaining intel, it also adds a whole new level of diplomacy.

Basically, in the remake of Master of Orion, if you capture a spy, you can either let them go free, imprison them (which creates a nice bargaining chip in that the spy's empire might trade for the spy's freedom), or you can execute them which damages your relations with the spy's empire! A very unique way of diplomacy.

 

[sdeezie]

It could become Not Fun, I think, if espionage were tied to the leader system in the wrong way. At first I was thinking you could assign "spy" leaders to various jobs, just like you assign governors or admirals, but with their turnover rate and the potential importance of the spy leaders, that might get annoying? It would be less so if each "spy leader" represented some big institution like the CIA or KGB instead of being an individual spy.

So maybe also the leader cap should be increased and leader recruitment costs decreased a bit ... Then you could have a Head of Domestic Intelligence and maybe also a Head of Intelligence for each foreign nation you targeted, and you could direct "teams" of abstracted spies through those intelligence officials to do various missions. That seems like it wouldn't be too tedious, and could also be optional, except maybe it would incentivize having at least a single domestic intelligence leader to give yourself some spy defense buffs.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

I've said it already, but I'd like to see espionage affect ethics and civics of other empires, as well as info gathering and assassination.

The new 1.5 faction mechanics seem like an excellent stepping stone towards faction manipulation of other empires, creating opportunities to shift their ethics in line with yours, or to create unruly factions that will destabilise them.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Yes for intel gathering. Every time you meet empire you should have no info about their fleet power - not even "equivalent" message. You should have "???" instead. Every next deeper level of infiltration should give you more info. Like "???"---->"equivalent"----->"20/22"---->"20/22 corvetes:20, destroyers:0, BC:0, BB:0, titans:0, specials:0".

Fleet movement monitoring MUST be restricted to sensors unless we want them beeing useless.
Also, no assasinations or straigh sabotaging. I dont know about faction supporting thou.

 

[mrt1212]

I hope espionage would cover a few things and each have a respective ongoing operations cost and harsh diplomatic penalties including instant grounds for a war for discovery

1. Siphon energy/minerals/research
2. Assassinate a leader
3. Sabotage production and or space stations
4. Tap sensor link
5. Steal ship designs
6. Counter espionage
7. Support unrest/terrorism/factions in other empires/planets/frontier stations
8. Bribe frontier outposts to your side
9. False flags to reduce ethic divergence

Additionally would like to see some counter espionage options in the edicts

1. Loyalty tests - decreases success of opposing espionage by marginal amount but causes less happiness conditionally
2. Surveillance state - decreases success of opposing espionage by marginal amount always know who ran the missions against you so you can effectively retaliate and saddle the perpatrator with negative diplomatic modifiers. Also causes less happiness conditionally
3. Thought Police - Requires PSI and allows a stick save roll against specific espionage actions against you and causes less happiness conditionally

I think espionage would make tall play a lot more viable. Just thinking of the possibility of facing a wormhole dependent race and putting all these elements in place before a war and running the risk of it all blowing up in your face before you get everything in place - it seems like it could be a real hoot. Or to see your rivals set up a similar scheme and knock the chair out from under you right after your boss leader is taken out...

I also like the idea of becoming a galactic pariah through failed espionage. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[mrt1212]

It could become Not Fun, I think, if espionage were tied to the leader system in the wrong way. At first I was thinking you could assign "spy" leaders to various jobs, just like you assign governors or admirals, but with their turnover rate and the potential importance of the spy leaders, that might get annoying? It would be less so if each "spy leader" represented some big institution like the CIA or KGB instead of being an individual spy.

So maybe also the leader cap should be increased and leader recruitment costs decreased a bit ... Then you could have a Head of Domestic Intelligence and maybe also a Head of Intelligence for each foreign nation you targeted, and you could direct "teams" of abstracted spies through those intelligence officials to do various missions. That seems like it wouldn't be too tedious, and could also be optional, except maybe it would incentivize having at least a single domestic intelligence leader to give yourself some spy defense buffs.

If there was a leader slot for espionage, I imagine the biggest jewel in the crown would be co-opting that leader to work as a double agent for you. You could know a significant portion of what ops were going down and use that info selectively to sully the name of the empire you put your spook hooks into.

 

[methegrate]

I hate espionage in 4x/Grand Strategy games, but I have to agree that is missing on the game.

Me too, on both counts. Usually it's just random pop-ups that "x has stolen your babylaser" or "this farm has blown up." I never feel like it adds much.

Here, though, I'd really like to be able to know what to demand as war goals. I always feel like I'm 90% guessing at that.

 

[Emraldis]

Plus, stellaris is missing that inter-empire political intrigue and subterfuge that is a staple of most classic and good sci-fi.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Plus, stellaris is missing that inter-empire political intrigue and subterfuge that is a staple of most classic and good sci-fi.

They've said they'll add in espionage if they game think of a good system for it, other mediums of entertainment don't have to deal with creating good gameplay to along with espionage and subterfuge.

 

[Emraldis]

They've said they'll add in espionage if they game think of a good system for it, other mediums of entertainment don't have to deal with creating good gameplay to along with espionage and subterfuge.

Oh I know, I'm just saying that stellaris would secure it's place as one of my favorite games of all time, if it could pull that off properly. Being able to steal invasion plans directed at a potential ally from an enemy, and then using those stolen plans to broker a defensive pact with that potential ally, or assassinating an enemy scientist while making it look like an internal faction did it, things like this would add so much life to the game.

 

[mrt1212]

Oh I know, I'm just saying that stellaris would secure it's place as one of my favorite games of all time, if it could pull that off properly. Being able to steal invasion plans directed at a potential ally from an enemy, and then using those stolen plans to broker a defensive pact with that potential ally, or assassinating an enemy scientist while making it look like an internal faction did it, things like this would add so much life to the game.

In space sci fi media, espionage is huge. I think about all the books and shows I've enjoyed with galactic empires and factions and one of the central elements of most of them is espionage. It would be like sprinkles and fudge sauce and a cherry on top of a good ice cream.

 

[Beagá]

This was similar to what was done in Master of Orion (especially the remake).

I'll have give that game a try, but in addition to espionage and gaining intel, it also adds a whole new level of diplomacy.

Basically, in the remake of Master of Orion, if you capture a spy, you can either let them go free, imprison them (which creates a nice bargaining chip in that the spy's empire might trade for the spy's freedom), or you can execute them which damages your relations with the spy's empire! A very unique way of diplomacy.

Yes it´s a very nice touch of the remake, diplomacy in general is good. Pity tactical combat went so much backwards by going real time. If it was turn based it would be a viable choice to Stellaris (while it would be pathetic regarding stuff like anomalies and monsters, it would compete quite well with the doomstack model of Stellaris. Ships feel more relevant in MOO and the leaders are a really nice touch).

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

One simple reason, basically you can see in the diplomacy screen if an empire is equivalent or not to yours, however equivalent could mean that he has even 70% more fleet power than yours, so you never know if you can actually declare war or not.
If you have no vision, espionage would be the only way to know what enemy's real power is (also it would be fun).
Let's be honest, you always reload the game once you realize that you fu**ed up

Sort your diplomacy list by power level, you'll at least be able to see if they are above or below you.

 

[Ikael]

Spyionage is intrinsicably linked to diplomacy and politics, you cannot improve one without touching the other. Rather than focus in commando type of missions (blowing up spaceships, stealing technology and the likes) it would be great if spyionage would be about influencing other empire's factions and leaders and manipulate them against each other. Flesh out sector leaders, give them their own agendas, ambitions and interactions between them and other leaders, internal or foreign. Improve diplomacy and federation-building, making empires able to unite or fracture progressively.

And then, add spyionage, so you can tempt ambitious sector governors to break off from their parent empires, sow discord among federation members, blackmail science leaders so they steal teach for you, coddle ambitious generals so they become Generalissimos in exchange of providing you with ignomious fleet retreats, or fund "expontaneous" cultural movements that nudges foreign empires towards your empire's ethics. Spyionage offers a lot of possibilities for not only for adding depth, but also flavour to the game, but it will need to have a lot more systems on place.

 

[Chiron]

A way to destroy the creeping advance of my allies Frontier Outposts pushing through my territory without having to cancel my defensive pacts and years worth of trust would be nice.

 

[Angelic_Daemon]

A lot of changes in this update sound like, at least to me, the ground work for an espionage system is being laid, primarily from factions, the unrest system, and possibly citizenship restrictions.