• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Boblof

Colonel
9 Badges
Sep 10, 2006
1.154
36
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
It seems like Verdun would be a horrible place to make a stand, and that getting the French to commit everything to doing so was correctly playing into German strengths.

So why did the german plan fail?

Was it simply the fact of mission creep? The Germans stayed on the attack too long and bled alongside the French?
German artillery wasn't as productive as anticipated and the French were too resilien to collapse from the casualties inflicted?
Or was it a flawed plan from the beginning and attritional warfare was a deadend in 1916?
Afaik much of the failure was down to bad weather.
First the weather delayed the start of the offensive by a weak or so which allowed the French, who had gotten wind of the buildup by then, time to bring in reinforcements.
Then in the beginning of the offensive there was heavy rains and snow which turned the battlefield into mud which slowed the advance and made it hard to get the field artillery where it was needed and allowed the French time to get even more reinforcements in to the salient.

In the end the Germans were unable to quickly take their objectives and instead continued to fight on the offensive (the alternative was basically to surrender what gains they had made in the salient and return to their starting positions) and took heavy casualties doing so.
 

Narwhal

Lt. General
21 Badges
Jul 30, 2009
1.586
163
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Rome Gold
  • Penumbra - Black Plague
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • East India Company
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 200k Club
  • Elven Legacy Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
There is an Apocalypse : Verdun documentary that has been broadcasted on French TV for the first time this evening. It was really great. Try to grab it. There was some new footages I had never seen - recolored.
 

StephenT

OT iconoclast
89 Badges
Mar 10, 2001
8.721
317
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities in Motion
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
It's worth noting that in late October 1916, the French launched a brilliant counter-attack at Verdun that recaptured, in a matter of days, most of the ground that the Germans had spent months capturing back in spring of that year. It's how Nivelle made his name, and why he was chosen as Joffre's successor.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Ming

Unsolicitor General
2 Badges
Aug 15, 2002
1.431
4.209
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
So then would it be accurate to say that the French counterattacks suffered significantly less casualties than the Germans anticipated?
 

Osteles

Rather evil GM
37 Badges
Sep 21, 2002
699
18
Visit site
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
What I wonder then is: why didnt the Germans shell the 'Voie Sacrée'? Was it simply out of range? Why not do, in stead of doing yet another costly offensive in say April against the forts, an offensive to be able to reach a position to shell the road?
 

StephenT

OT iconoclast
89 Badges
Mar 10, 2001
8.721
317
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities in Motion
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
So then would it be accurate to say that the French counterattacks suffered significantly less casualties than the Germans anticipated?
Certainly. Bear in mind that by the time the French counter-attacked the battle of the Somme was ongoing, so the German high command's attention was elsewhere. Also, the French were able to gain air superiority over Verdun, so German reconnaissance aircraft didn't spot the troop build-up there until it was too late.

Nivelle came up with a cunning plan for the start of the battle. His artillery launched a standard preparatory bombardment followed by a rolling barrage. The Germans, assuming the French infantry were crossing No Man's Land just behind the barrage, opened fire with all of their own artillery. But it was a trick: none of the French soldiers had left their trenches. Instead the French air force, using its air superiority, flew reconnaissance flights over the German lines to spot the muzzle flashes and pin-point the exact location of each German artillery battery. Over the next two days, French long-range artillery attacked and destroyed almost half of the German artillery in the sector, and forced most of the rest to withdraw out of range. When the real French infantry attack began, it suffered few casualties because there were so few German cannons left to fire at them. The French were also using new tactics, with light machine guns and grenadiers integrated directly with their riflemen.

Nivelle was hailed as a genius for this triumph — the most significant French military victory since the Marne two years earlier. The problem was that it made him over-confident; the trouble with winning victories by trickery is that your opponent won't always do what you want him to do.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

StephenT

OT iconoclast
89 Badges
Mar 10, 2001
8.721
317
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities in Motion
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
What I wonder then is: why didnt the Germans shell the 'Voie Sacrée'? Was it simply out of range? Why not do, in stead of doing yet another costly offensive in say April against the forts, an offensive to be able to reach a position to shell the road?
Yes, it was out of range. That was the point: the Voie Sacrée was the only pre-existing road that was out of range of the German artillery, so it was the only one the French could safely use. It ran down the middle of the salient.

The French also concentrated virtually their entire air force over Verdun to prevent the Germans bombing the road.
 

Imgran

General
28 Badges
Nov 2, 2003
2.170
1.554
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
And even despite all that, didn't the Voie Sacree get cut off a couple times by sabotage only to be very quickly repaired?

At the end of the day a road is a hard thing to ruin for any length of time unless you suppress repair crews, and the Germans never had enough control over the Verdun battlefield to accomplish this. You can spend an hour cratering it and a good dedicated repair crew can get it up to miniman function only a couple hours after that by dumping crushed rock into the craters and bulldozering over the top of it to form a hasty patch. Railroads are on the whole much easier to damage into unusability, and even they were all but impossible to seriously disrupt for any great length of time without a sustained ground presence.
 

Graf Zeppelin

NATO ante portas
43 Badges
Mar 19, 2006
4.090
18.997
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
And even despite all that, didn't the Voie Sacree get cut off a couple times by sabotage only to be very quickly repaired?

At the end of the day a road is a hard thing to ruin for any length of time unless you suppress repair crews, and the Germans never had enough control over the Verdun battlefield to accomplish this. You can spend an hour cratering it and a good dedicated repair crew can get it up to miniman function only a couple hours after that by dumping crushed rock into the craters and bulldozering over the top of it to form a hasty patch. Railroads are on the whole much easier to damage into unusability, and even they were all but impossible to seriously disrupt for any great length of time without a sustained ground presence.
There werent bulldozers in WW1. They did it the hard way.
 

Ming

Unsolicitor General
2 Badges
Aug 15, 2002
1.431
4.209
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
It seems the original plan would have wanted the road kept open anyway.

They wanted French troops to keep pouring in, not force a withdrawal.
 

jcd000

First Lieutenant
6 Badges
Jun 29, 2015
215
235
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • BATTLETECH
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
Afaiu they wanted the French troops to get in, bleed out under the pressure and then keep slowly trickling in, fighting a battle they can't win and can't withdraw from.

I don't think the plant anticipated the ability to utilise the road + small gauge line in such a way that both troop rotation and enough supplies could be provided.