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Herbert West

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Every time I read or hear about the Siege of Verdun (1916 edition), there are some references to Verdun not as a strategic military target, but as a symbol of national prestige for France, one they would defend for "pour la patrie", not for its strategic value, but for the usual chest-beating stuff of nationalism, patriotism, and symbols.

However, my cursory search revealed no strong historic or patriotic connotation. Obviously, there is the Treaty of Verdun, and there are two lost battles in 1792 and 1870 respectively, but nothing that screams "Nationalistically important place" to me.

Help me out, forum
 

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It became a nationalist important place for the battle, with the thousands of French dead there. Otherwise it was quite the common place for the front I believe, it's just the usual "We won't let them pass"
 

George Parr

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It became a nationalist important place for the battle, with the thousands of French dead there. Otherwise it was quite the common place for the front I believe, it's just the usual "We won't let them pass"

No, that can't be it. It was specifically chosen because of its importance to France.
The whole idea behind the plan - unless you believe all that was said about it being made up afterwards to defend the decision - was to cause a situation in which the French would constantly bring in new troops to defend an extremely important place, and by doing so causing their own demise, because the Germans control the high-grounds and can simply pound the defenders or any French attempt to regain the high-grounds. The whole idea obviously doesn't work if the French would regard it just as any place in the front. It's not like Verdun was a good position to be in, it was a bulge in the frontline, with most of the important paths towards it being either cut or in the line of fire of German artillery. There is a reason why the French thought about abandoning the position slightly earlier.
 

DoomBunny

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Theorising. Verdun was an area of important fortification in France pre-war, it was close enough to the existing frontline to threaten without achieving the impossible (a breakthrough), and it sat in the center of a large bulge in the Allied line, making its loss significant. I can't say for sure why it was picked though.

Western_front_1915-16.jpg


Perhaps try Robert Foley, German Strategy and the Path to Verdun: Erik von Falkenhayn and the Development of Attrition? It might include something on it, I haven't read it myself however.
 
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Boblof

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Every time I read or hear about the Siege of Verdun (1916 edition), there are some references to Verdun not as a strategic military target, but as a symbol of national prestige for France, one they would defend for "pour la patrie", not for its strategic value, but for the usual chest-beating stuff of nationalism, patriotism, and symbols.

However, my cursory search revealed no strong historic or patriotic connotation. Obviously, there is the Treaty of Verdun, and there are two lost battles in 1792 and 1870 respectively, but nothing that screams "Nationalistically important place" to me.

Help me out, forum

Afaik after the Franco-Prussian war where Verdun was the last French fortification to surrender and suddenly found itself to be close to the German-French border and smack in the middle of presumed future German invasion routes toward Paris. The French rather immediately started to beef up the defenses around Verdun, work that didn't end until 1913. By the time of WWI it had as far as I can understand been sold to the people as a principal point of defense for Paris and France overall. Loosing it was thought to have the potential to have demoralized the French people who might not have understood that defending forts rather than holes in the ground was sooooo 1914.
 
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Imgran

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I think it was simpler than that. They had to stop the German advance somewhere. If a major fortress couldn't do it, when would they be able to stop them?
 

Herbert West

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I think it was simpler than that. They had to stop the German advance somewhere. If a major fortress couldn't do it, when would they be able to stop them?

Yeah, but it was not the French who started Verdun, it was the Germans, and every commentary I have seen or read on the battle said that the Germans (the attackers) anticipated the French (the defenders) to try and hold that area (thus turning it into a semi-deliberate attrition battle and hoping for a repeat Champagne) not because of its strategic value, but out of sentimentality.

If this is true, then the sentimental value has to pre-date the 1916 battle. I have yet to find conclusive proof of said sentimental value being there before the siege.
 

Imgran

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I don't think that is necessarily true. The French also perceived Verdun as their last best chance to make a really good stand against the German army. Verdun's defense gave the French some advantages in the war of attrition, that's why it was a salient in the first place. The Germans were counting on the French to go all in on that hope for an advantage and then to find ways to break the French in spite of it. Didn't quite work for them because of the usual problem of Germany during the world wars -- pressure from another front called away resources that should have been committed at Verdun, and the remaining forces ran out of steam before they could finish Verrdun off. Also Marshall Petain did a pretty solid job of rotating French forces to keep them fresh and prevent the Germans from eliminating whole units..
 

Boblof

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I think it was simpler than that. They had to stop the German advance somewhere. If a major fortress couldn't do it, when would they be able to stop them?
It wasn't just any old fortress, Verdun was the northernmost fortress in a chain that ran down the entire entire french-german border and was the heaviest fortified city in France. It was because of forts like Verdun that Schlieffen wanted to go thru Belgium.

As for national romantic symbolism if one wants that it was ofc a settlement dating back to the Gauls, the place of the treaty of Verdun and and it played a big role in the war of the first coalition (when the Prussians initially took the fortress but were later ousted) and in the Franco-Prussian war (where it was the last fortress to fall to the Prussians before the fall of Paris).
 
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Boblof

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I don't think that is necessarily true. The French also perceived Verdun as their last best chance to make a really good stand against the German army. Verdun's defense gave the French some advantages in the war of attrition, that's why it was a salient in the first place. The Germans were counting on the French to go all in on that hope for an advantage and then to find ways to break the French in spite of it.
Not at all, Falkenhayn specifically wanted to lure them into fighting in Verdun because he figured that artillery caused 75% of battlefield casualties and Verdun could be shelled from 3 different sides, his whole idea was to "bleed them white" and cause the French to surrender by means of attrition. Fortressed had been found out to be entirely useless against modern artillery early on in the war which was also why the noone really bothered with them after 1914.
 
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joak

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Is the idea that absent some emotional value the French would have just abandoned the salient because the Germans looked determined? I'd never seen that in my (admittedly limited) readings on it and it does seem a bit odd--land was dear in WWI and defenders seldom gave it up. And at least on the posted map it would have been by far the biggest retreat of that period of the war if they'd lost it.
 

Boblof

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Is the idea that absent some emotional value the French would have just abandoned the salient because the Germans looked determined? I'd never seen that in my (admittedly limited) readings on it and it does seem a bit odd--land was dear in WWI and defenders seldom gave it up. And at least on the posted map it would have been by far the biggest retreat of that period of the war if they'd lost it.
I think the idea was that absent emotional value they would not have fought as hard for it due to how undefendable the area looked on paper, and that they might instead have taken the oppertunity to attack elsewhere along the front seeing that the Germans had concentrated their troops and artillery around Verdun.

The French would likely have fought anyway but Falkenhayn wanted to turn it into an absolute meatgrinder (by imagining that the French would mass a huge amount of troops in Verdun where they could be shelled with impunity) and he could only do that if the French could be counted on to be irrational about the defense of Verdun.
 

Imgran

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Not at all, Falkenhayn specifically wanted to lure them into fighting in Verdun because he figured that artillery caused 75% of battlefield casualties and Verdun could be shelled from 3 different sides, his whole idea was to "bleed them white" and cause the French to surrender by means of attrition. Fortressed had been found out to be entirely useless against modern artillery early on in the war which was also why the noone really bothered with them after 1914.

You misunderstand me. Of course Falkenhayn wanted a decisive battle. However, Verdun was a major French fortress and the reason he expected the French to go all in at Verdun was that it was as good a place as there was in the entire country to fight a defensive battle -- as you said, Falkenhayn just thought he had the assets it took to overcome even a very strong and committed defensive stand.

But to pretend that France was wrong that making their stand in a heavily fortified area did give them advantages for defense is neither correct nor fair. Falkenhayn knew that too, he thought he could get around Verdun with artillery the way they did in Liege. However, Petain rallied French morale, came up with some innovative defensive strategies and rotated his forces to keep fresh French forces on the frontlines and prevent the bombardment from wearing down overwhelming Verdun in the way it had happened at Liege.
 

DoomBunny

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I think you misunderstand the German plan for Verdun. Essentially it was meant to be a defensive battle brought on by a quick successful offensive. The idea was to seize the forts in front of Verdun quickly and then force the French to seize them back or lose the town. In Falkenhayn's concept, Verdun was not meant to be a grinding siege against strong defences, it was meant to be a prompt for French counter-attack that could then be exploited to produce disproportionate casualty rates. The idea was to seize the position before the French could turn the battle into a meatgrinder and then make them enter into a German meatgrinder.

That the battle turned into a grinding advance was due not to Falkenhayn's orders, but due to the generals allowing themselves to be drawn into a prolonged offensive.
 

Boblof

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You misunderstand me. Of course Falkenhayn wanted a decisive battle. However, Verdun was a major French fortress and the reason he expected the French to go all in at Verdun was that it was as good a place as there was in the entire country to fight a defensive battle -- as you said, Falkenhayn just thought he had the assets it took to overcome even a very strong and committed defensive stand.
But Falkenhayn did not plan to incrementally wear down the French as they defended the salient, he planned on overrunning the most important geographical features in the salient (most importantly the Meuse hights) quickly with little casualties (since the garrison and number of artillery guns was actually rather small and much of the forts had already been destroyed by German artillery) before the French could bring their full force to bear and then laugh loudly as the French took horrendous casualties trying to take it back in a counteroffensive.

Initially the Germans did make good gains, but then weather struck, with heavy rains and snow which bogged down the German field artillery and stalled the offensive allowing the French to bring in reinforcements and artillery before the Germans had reached their objectives that were supposed to lock down the salient with interlocking artillery fire and prevent the French from bringing up their artillery on the west bank of the Meuse. As a result the German artillery advantage was not nearly as great as Falkenhayn had hoped for and German casualties started to mount both in the offensive phase of the operation (which dragged on and on) and during the French counteroffensives.

But to pretend that France was wrong that making their stand in a heavily fortified area did give them advantages for defense is neither correct nor fair. Falkenhayn knew that too, he thought he could get around Verdun with artillery the way they did in Liege. However, Petain rallied French morale, came up with some innovative defensive strategies and rotated his forces to keep fresh French forces on the frontlines and prevent the bombardment from wearing down overwhelming Verdun in the way it had happened at Liege.
The question in the OP was not as far as I can tell whether the French was wrong to conduct the battle as they ended up doing (although before one starts to talk about all the defensive advantages offered by the fortresses it should be noted that the French indeed took more casualties than the Germans) but rather what lead Falkenhayn to think the battle would play out as he envisioned.
 

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Fortressed had been found out to be entirely useless against modern artillery early on in the war which was also why the noone really bothered with them after 1914.

That's not true generally. The last generation of fortifications (like Verdun and Metz) were built of steel-reinforced concrete. Even the modern siege-artillery had major problems with the only two fortifications of Verdun fortress which were affected by the Battle of Verdun. Both fortifications were not conquered by artillery. The Belgian fortifications were built of unreinforced concrete and most of the French fortifications along Belgien border were built of bricks.
 

Easy-Kill

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I think you misunderstand the German plan for Verdun. Essentially it was meant to be a defensive battle brought on by a quick successful offensive. The idea was to seize the forts in front of Verdun quickly and then force the French to seize them back or lose the town. In Falkenhayn's concept, Verdun was not meant to be a grinding siege against strong defences, it was meant to be a prompt for French counter-attack that could then be exploited to produce disproportionate casualty rates. The idea was to seize the position before the French could turn the battle into a meatgrinder and then make them enter into a German meatgrinder.

That the battle turned into a grinding advance was due not to Falkenhayn's orders, but due to the generals allowing themselves to be drawn into a prolonged offensive.

Indeed, by this stage in the war, the Germans appreciated that the only place they could 'win' the war was by defeating France (and subsequently Britain) on the Western Front and that a breakthrough was unlikely. The only advantage Germany had was its relative martial and manpower strength - without the possibility of Breakthrough the only option was to kill as many Frenchman as was necessary to cause a general break in morale.
 

joak

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I think the idea was that absent emotional value they would not have fought as hard for it due to how undefendable the area looked on paper, and that they might instead have taken the oppertunity to attack elsewhere along the front seeing that the Germans had concentrated their troops and artillery around Verdun.

The French would likely have fought anyway but Falkenhayn wanted to turn it into an absolute meatgrinder (by imagining that the French would mass a huge amount of troops in Verdun where they could be shelled with impunity) and he could only do that if the French could be counted on to be irrational about the defense of Verdun.

I guess my problem for the question to make sense you have to assume what you're asking.

I don't think you can describe anyplace in the western front trenches as "undefendable on paper" and the "irrational" defense by France was in fact successful, without a massive disparity in casualties and IIRC more equal as the defense continued.

The idea of sacrificing territory to attack a weak point elsewhere on the German line also doesn't work for me. There's logic to it in the abstract but they'd be giving up far more than they'd gained in any of their other, previous offensives. And given the nature of the war an attack elsewhere wouldn't exactly be "surprise them at a weakened point and break through the lines before they recover." Standard operating procedure was to spend weeks amassing available artillery and shells and then days bombarding--then, of course, lose the minimal gains you made because you outran your artillery support and the enemy had reinforcements. If you actually gave up the salient you can't do anything else in time.

I'm a bit more convinced of my position given the replies in this thread--it seems like if Verdun was a national symbol it was a well kept secret.
 

Semper Victor

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The notion that Falkenhayn wanted to "bleed France white" comes from his own memoirs, published after the war in 1922. There's no documentary evidence that his intention was really that at the time when he planned the Verdun offensive in the winter of 1915-16. And given Falkenhayn's penchant for secretism, we will probably never know.

What the German commanders in France made abundantly clear is that if such was Falkenhayn's intention, he never told any of them so, not even to Schmidt von Knobelsdorff, the Head of Staff of V Army who was the real enforcer of Falkenhayn's will on the battlefield (especially after time went by and Falkenhayn's relationship with Kronprinz Wilhelm deteriorated). That caused a great deal of frustration amongst them, because they never understood what was the real objective of the battle (according to Falkenhayn). To them, it was to conquer the fortresses of Verdun. And the way the German attack was managed and organized was not very conductive to that goal from the very start.

If the objective was indeed to occupy the fortresses, the Germans wasted miserably the initial attack, when a decided push against a devastated French defense would have been an almost sure success. But their cautious approach allowed the French time to reinforce Verdun and turn the battle into a meatgrinder for both sides.

On the other side, for the kind of battle that Falkenhayn apparently wanted Verdun was a good choice. It was near major rail lines controlled by the Germans, and thus supply (especially artillery shells) and reinforcement was not a problem, while on the contrary Verdun had very poor rail connections on the French side. And the numerous hills on the east side of the Meuse also allowed for excellent artillery positions from which the German long range guns could shell Verdun from relatively safe and hidden placements. But if the battle was to be a long one, not attacking from the start also on the west bank of the Meuse (like the generals of V Army had wanted) was a bloody mistake, for it allowed the French artillery three months to slaughter with impunity the right flank of the German Fifth Army that was attacking the French positions on the right bank of the river. And when they finally managed to mount that attack and silence the French guns, it was at a very high cost.

Falkenhayn also was a bit naïve to think that the French army of 1916 would be the same army it'd been in 1914, when the Germans had enjoyed an absolute superiority in heavy artillery. By early 1916 the French had closed the gap, and at the Verdun battlefield they managed to deploy an artillery display that matched the German one. When general Von Gallwitz first arrived in the battlefield in March 1916 half of his staff, who were driving in a car in front of him, were blown up to pieces by a French 105mm shell. This showed him that the French army would be a very different enemy than the Russian one.
 
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