Why use 20 width over 10 width?

[Spelaren]

If you use 10 width infantry to defend a front you can be more flexible since you can split off infantry from places they are not needed to other places that are attacked, and when you are attacking you can use 10 width cavalry after a breakthrough to easily split them off itno random directions to take more ground.

 

[Orlunu]

The way the damage calculations work, ten widths are less effective in terms of the attrition balance - for an equivalent force they lose more men/equipment and inflict fewer losses. So, it's a balance between the factors favouring smaller units and the factors favouring larger units; generally the convention that people have come to accept is that 20w is a good balance for defence, but for offence you want to bloatmaxx to 40w. This is largely for mobility/coverage and reinforcement reasons, as you have indicated, mattering more of the defence. Where 20w units can be produced in sufficient numbers, they are generally good enough in these aspects for their combat advantage over 10w to be the more contrasting element.

Situationally/strategically, sometimes 10w can be better. Generally, its advantage on a large scale can be summarised to "it fights worse but slows the enemy down better". This can be an advantage because of your strategic situation (China, for instance) or because of your doctrine (relying on CAS as your main damage-dealer, so bogging the enemy down in combat is more important than your division's trading in itself).

Anyway, ofc there are other factors, but I think those are the most important points.

 

[Bki]

You need twice the amount of generals and army with 10-width.

Also the 20 width divs are generally good enough for most things that you want infantry to do.

 

[GeorgieBest]

I really hope they do something to stop 40-width being the strongest.

 

[Kryndude]

10W are best for prolonging battles and holding the line because having many divisions split enemy firepower. However, there are a few downsides to 10W which is why people use 20W instead which does a good enough job at defending while not suffering from the same disadvantages.

1. 10W are prone to exceeding division number limit and combat width limit.
2. The main advantage of 10W can be countered with 40W that guarantees said amount of battalions concentrating firepower on one unit, in which case that one 10W unit gets reckt because of low defense stat.
3. 10W benefit half as much from good generals and field marshals as 20W.
4. Support companies that give percentage bonus (ENG, LOG, SIG, etc) essentially cost double on 10W.
5. 20W already are pretty bad on offense but 10W are even worse.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

I really hope they do something to stop 40-width being the strongest.

40 WIDTH DIVISIONS SHOULD BE BANNED, OR SEVERELY LIMITED!

 

[Emren]

1. Support companies that give percentage bonus (ENG, LOG, SIG, etc) essentially cost double on 10W.

I would think that adding support companies to 10W divisions is prohibitively expensive, especially in support equipment?

 

[Simon_9732495]

IF (and thats a big, fat if) the enemy cannot attack over the defense of your 10width division, 8 10w divisions hold a tile for about double the time than 4 20w.

That is because a 10w division has about the same org as a 20w (because org is an average value). That means 8 divisions together have double the org of 4 divisions together. Battles are in first place battles of org (who runs out of org first loses) so a 10w can hold double the time.

But they lose more equipment per day and the enemy loses less and all the other disadvantages you see in the postings above.

I use 10w for coastal defense because naval invasions have very low attack values, so lower defense is not a problem.

 

[Kryndude]

I would think that adding support companies to 10W divisions is prohibitively expensive, especially in support equipment?

I would think so too, but it's not like I have data to back it up so don't take it as fact.

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

Basic all infantry division, with arty, shovels and AA costs are (1936 techs):
10w: 500
20w: 750
40w: 1250
i.e. 250 for support, 250 per 10w of infantry.

Defense, to compare them:
10w: 145
20w: 250
40w: 475
i.e. almost, but not quite, double every time.

So the 10w is prohibitively expensive for almost no gain in defense. Yes, you're more likely to be able to reinforce by using a spam of 10w, but the losses are going to be nothing short of catastrophic (at least double those of a 40w). For most nations, 20w makes sense. For the soviets, which have significant boosts to reinforce, 40w is better. The only time 10w could make sense is for China (infinite manpower), but even then, it's so-so as your losses mean you're going to just end up with a bunch of very green units vs Japanese superveterans.

 

[Harin]

I would think that adding support companies to 10W divisions is prohibitively expensive, especially in support equipment?

If you are running two 10w for each 20w, then any support units you use would, of course, cost twice as much IC for that support, since you are using twice as many engineers or whatever.

Another possible concern; if your 10w are using support units in the same ratio as your 20w, then their attrition would also be twice as much on that support equipment, than using 20w divisions.

 

[Diakonen]

I have been very succesfull with 10w for defence (eng, art) and 40w for offence as japan vs china. By just holding the north with 48 div. My kd ratio was 40 to 1.

 

[Harin]

I have been very succesfull with 10w for defence (eng, art) and 40w for offence as japan vs china. By just holding the north with 48 div. My kd ratio was 40 to 1.

I believe that 10w are useful, but they do cost more in support equipment. I have used them myself when playing certain countries, but my knee-jerk move is 20w when playing richer countries. With @Simon_9732495 's post above pointing out how useful they are in coastal defense, I think I will try that out. Time for me to move to a more thoughtful approach to divisions produced and why.

 

[ambien]

As France, I use 10 w infantry (with eng, hospital, arty and AT) to man my forts because of France's serious manpower issues. They hold the line, preserve manpower and inflict massive losses, giving me time to build up my offensive forces.

 

[noobermenschen]

40 WIDTH DIVISIONS SHOULD BE BANNED, OR SEVERELY LIMITED!

WOT? I can't hear you over the sound of my enemies being crushed...

 

[Kryndude]

WOT? I can't hear you over the sound of my enemies being crushed...

View attachment 582019

Holy shit that's not even fake, like WTF?

 

[Cavalry]

10w does not have enough defense vs 20w, or 27w of German infantry. So I use them only as land grabber cavalry/MOT or defense in moutain, rough terrain. If enemy use 40w, then I use 20w at the minimum.

One will not learn about defense until he play against Germany!

 

[Diakonen]

I believe that 10w are useful, but they do cost more in support equipment. I have used them myself when playing certain countries, but my knee-jerk move is 20w when playing richer countries. With @Simon_9732495 's post above pointing out how useful they are in coastal defense, I think I will try that out. Time for me to move to a more thoughtful approach to divisions produced and why.

Yes, this is certainly the case. However as Japan I need alot of divisions to cover a very large, low supply front. Then 10w is usefull. And the chinese are not able to break them regardless. When you get the support company bonuses from Superior Firepower its a slaughter house.

10w does not have enough defense vs 20w, or 27w of German infantry. So I use them only as land grabber cavalry/MOT or defense in moutain, rough terrain. If enemy use 40w, then I use 20w at the minimum.

One will not learn about defense until he play against Germany!

Very true. 10w would not stop Germany. When I did Viva la France achivement I went for 20-26w Cav + LTD and later HTD + AA.

 

[Simon_9732495]

10w does not have enough defense vs 20w, or 27w of German infantry.

and

10w would not stop Germany.

I wouldn't say that.


I recently did this challenge:

• Play as Soviet Union.
• Game setting Strengthen Ger, Ita, Jap to max.
• No Air allowed.
• Only 10width Divisions for defense allowed.
• For offense only modern tanks

Results:

Did the run. It was a success.
I built the 10w without support, even without AA and had ~1000 Divisions in 1941. (But no single Airplane and no Fort.)
I had 720 Divisions on German Front (10 Generals with 72 each) and they pushed with 24 Divisions per Tile and had a lot of CAS. I microed all of Barbarossa without a single Frontline command.
They were far away from Stalin Line, couldnt get Kiev, couldnt get Minsk; the only Cities they got were Wilno and Lwow. In early 1943 I had 4 40 width Modern Tanks fielded and started counteroffensive.
In 1944 Axis capitulated. (I still had not a single Airplane.)

More Details here:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-infantry-against-tanks.1382215/post-26521473


It wouldn't have been THAT much easier with 20w. I made a quick test, loaded a save a bit before Barbarossa, deleted half of the divisions converted the others into 20w, did some frontlines and let it run with 5 speed. I got pushed more than with the 10w on slow speed and heavy micro. (I know it's not the same test, but it shows that the 20w are not so much better that the hold without microing.)

 

[Diakonen]

I recently did this challenge:

• Play as Soviet Union.
• Game setting Strengthen Ger, Ita, Jap to max.
• No Air allowed.
• Only 10width Divisions for defense allowed.
• For offense only modern tanks

Results:

More Details here:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-infantry-against-tanks.1382215/post-26521473

I was having France in mind when I wrote my reply, but still an interesting result!
What doctrine did you use?