Why Turkey?

[Yunusky33]

Turkey's entry into the war with Axis or Allies was a high probability. So new focus tree will be amazing for alternative history.

 

[Ivankovsky]

You need to re-read my post with intent:

"[T]rees for nations that either did not really participate in WW2 as combatant nations, or were conquered very quickly. [...] Greece, which lasted longer but fell very quickly once the Germans got involved"

Portugal, Spain, Mexico, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Holland, France, Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey and arguably Manchukuo, which was more a Japanese PR stunt than a real nation, all fit the bill: all of them either didn't participate as nations, or did but collapsed and were occupied quickly or relatively quickly (Greece), and they as nations did not significantly impact the course of the war. If anything, their failures to do so did (e.g. the defeat of France). One could of course argue that France failed as a nation and therefore it, as a nation, had a huge impact. What I'm getting at here though is a nation's impact on the war out of its own will, not out of its unwilling defeat.

If it were in your power to choose, these nations wouldn't get focus trees then?
Though what you said is true about these countries participation and performance, I welcome the ability to get in their shoes and make due of the situation, in this case Turkey, Greece and Bulgaria are welcome additions imo.

Paradox made it clear its more about bundling countries that make sense together (Turkey - Greece) than anything else and it seems to be the case.
The "memey" content that sells seems to come more from the "alt-history" scenarios that don't make much sense, than anything else.
I wish HoI4 alt-routes relied more on plausibility instead of set sudden "commie, fascist, monarchist route" but I guess its too late for that...

 

[Fulmen]

If it were in your power to choose, these nations wouldn't get focus trees then?
Though what you said is true about these countries participation and performance, I welcome the ability to get in their shoes and make due of the situation, in this case Turkey, Greece and Bulgaria are welcome additions imo.

If it were up to me, I'd deliver country content roughly in order of historical impact and performance in WW2, not by with how well their meme trees can interact with one another, which, let's be real, is the real reason they went for the "expansions by geographical region" approach instead of the "historical ties" approach they first did with TfV (British dominions DLC). I mean think about it, how much exactly do the historical trees or event choices actually interact with the other countries of a DLC? US-Mexico interactions for instance are more or less limited to an oil embargo and a "join Allies" event, unless either country does wacky fantasy stuff. The devs themselves also mentioned something I and others had already warned them about, namely that doing all these alt-focuses for every country is making it harder to keep track of which tree impacts whom when they are in XYZ alt-path of their own. Again, likely a major reason why they started doing the focus trees by region, as it makes it easier to keep track of this stuff. Oh and I'd cut France and Italy some slack, even though combined they performed worse than some European minors did alone, but since they were important majors in the interwar period, I'd give them trees at game release, though without silly fantasy stuff and with more historical content instead of what PDX did.

And speaking of which, I'd get rid of all the meme stuff. More precisely, I would have never developed it in the first place. I'd focus on getting WW2 to a satisfactory level, maybe with a few mainly condition-driven somewhat plausible alternatives, and after that I'd add more content to the rest of the world that didn't impact the war all that much. Then I'd just keep fleshing out the game with more mechanics and realistic content, but no meme stuff; I really don't care about that at all whatsoever.

Well this turned out to be quite the tangent, but that's what I'd have done with HoI4. Of course that's without the pressure from higher-ups and stock holders to churn out more profits at the expense of what many perceive as "boring realism". Indeed, my version of HoI4 would probably have far fewer players than PDX's version.

 

[coffeelingfine]

Dunno about anyone else but I'm looking forward to Turkey because they have so much room to expand in any direction. You take on the Soviets, or the Allies in the middle east and Africa, or the Balkan countries.

 

[XselenS]

This suggests a Mongolian tree as what's cooler than rebuilding the Mongol Empire?

Well played.

 

[xtfoster]

There are 25 unique focus trees in the game (including the regionally unique Chinese warlord tree, but excluding the stump that is the Vichy French tree, which for all intents and purposes is a branch of the main French tree), 8 of these, meaning 32%, are trees for nations that either did not really participate in WW2 as combatant nations, or were conquered very quickly. The addition of Greece, which lasted longer but fell very quickly once the Germans got involved, Bulgaria and Turkey will bring this number up to 11 out of 28, or 39%.

While the math is good, I'm not sure I agree with the premise. I can't for the life of me see how you consider only 8 of the countries with unique trees as being countries that "really participated in WW2 as combatant nations or were conquered very quickly."

Lets start with the original 8 (UK/Germany/Italy/France/Poland/USSR/USA/Japan)...only Poland falls into that category (they were conquered quickly). While the USSR/Italy/Poland have not gotten a rework yet they do have unique trees.

Then there are the 5 Together for Victory countries (Canada/Australia/New Zeeland/South Africa/The Raj) All participated heavily (relative to their individual abilities) in WW2.

Next are the 4 Death or Dishonor countries (Hungary/Romania/Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia) 2 (Hungary/Romania) participated heavily while 2 (Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia) were out relatively quickly.

Next is Waking the Tiger (China (I consider this to be 1 tree that is shared between all the Chinese countries) plus reworks for Germany/Japan). So the 1 country with a new tree participated heavily in the war.

Man the Guns could go either way (Mexico/The Netherlands). Mexico didn't really (directly) participate in the war (except for a single Fighter Squadron), and European Netherlands fell quickly, so neither really counts towards your criteria.

La Resistance added Spain (again 1 shared tree) which technically didn't participate in WW2, but they definitely participated in War during (or immediately preceding it) and Portugal which didn't directly participate in the war but certain aspects of its 'neutral' involvement were certainly important to the overall war. So again neither new country counts towards your criteria.

So by my math we have 7+5+1=13 out of 8+5+1+2+2=18 or 13/18=72% of the countries with unique trees (prior to the next DLC) having "really participated in WW2 as combatant nations".

So far all we know for sure is Greece and Bulgaria for the next DLC. Both participated in the war, but not in a major way. Greece fell quickly (once Germany joined the fight) and Bulgaria didn't really do much except assist in the Balkans. (They never declared war on the USSR.) If Turkey gets added they also wouldn't fall into that, although like Portugal they played the various combatants off each other for their own purposes.

 

[TalyonUngol]

This suggests a Mongolian tree as what's cooler than rebuilding the Mongol Empire?

Rebuilding the Swedish empire. I'm hoping to get to do that one day.


That being said. Ottoman Empire will be fun too. Im excited to see turkey. Im hoping an ottoman side of of the tree. A facist and communist. And a more realistic non aligned. Democratic is lame to me. Lmao.

 

[Marques from Brazil]

Wait they not participate in WW2 for i know right? So why introduce it in a DLC?

And what can be achieved doing an turkey nf?

Good question! If the developers intend to create some content for a South American nation, the correct thing would be for them to create for Brazil, which was the only nation in all of Latin America to effectively participate in the war, even if it was in the modest way it was.

 

[PARAfel]

Good question! If the developers intend to create some content for a South American nation, the correct thing would be for them to create for Brazil, which was the only nation in all of Latin America to effectively participate in the war, even if it was in the modest way it was.

Yea Brazil can do the Brazilian Empire with Plinio Salgado and joins the Axis.

 

[TalyonUngol]

South America should be Columbia, Venezuela, brazil and maybe Argentina.

Then Denmark Norway and Sweden for a Icelandic.

We also need updates to the DoD nations like Hungary yugo Czech and Romania.

Poland needs a rework with Soviet Union with a Finland tree.

Italy will get a rework but dunno who would get reworked with him.

 

[PARAfel]

South America should be Columbia, Venezuela, brazil and maybe Argentina.

Then Denmark Norway and Sweden for a Icelandic.

We also need updates to the DoD nations like Hungary yugo Czech and Romania.

Poland needs a rework with Soviet Union with a Finland tree.

Italy will get a rework but dunno who would get reworked with him.

We have the Ecuadorian-Peruvian war too, idk if is valid make an nf with they but they have an war in game period.

 

[TalyonUngol]

We have the Ecuadorian-Peruvian war too, idk if is valid make an nf with they but they have an war in game period.

Eh. Maybe but there are achs for Columbia. So there is that. Id at least want brazil and Columbia. Maybe a Brazil tree that cores Portugal like portugal does Brazil.

 

[pheonicia]

You need to re-read my post with intent:

"[T]rees for nations that either did not really participate in WW2 as combatant nations, or were conquered very quickly. [...] Greece, which lasted longer but fell very quickly once the Germans got involved"

Portugal, Spain, Mexico, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Holland, France, Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey and arguably Manchukuo, which was more a Japanese PR stunt than a real nation, all fit the bill: all of them either didn't participate as nations, or did but collapsed and were occupied quickly or relatively quickly (Greece), and they as nations did not significantly impact the course of the war. If anything, their failures to do so did (e.g. the defeat of France). One could of course argue that France failed as a nation and therefore it, as a nation, had a huge impact. What I'm getting at here though is a nation's impact on the war out of its own will, not out of its unwilling defeat.

Raj before France and Poland is a pretty hot take I don't think I've ever seen before.

 

[Marques from Brazil]

Yea Brazil can do the Brazilian Empire with Plinio Salgado and joins the Axis.

Yeah, and under the Brazilian monarchy, the emperor would be Pedro Henrique de Orléans e Bragança Under the title of Dom Pedro III, From the Royal House of Orleans and Bragança, Who would have ruled the empire from 1921 to 1981.

 

[Marques from Brazil]

The "memey" content that sells seems to come more from the "alt-history" scenarios that don't make much sense, than anything else.

I wish HoI4 alt-routes relied more on plausibility instead of set sudden "commie, fascist, monarchist route" but I guess its too late for that...

The monarchic restoration of Brazil was something very plausible, the chances of this happening were very high, until today it is still because of the defeatist feeling of the Brazilians, the Brazilians always felt that the republic was a mistake, the best result in the elections for the Brazilian parliament of the republican party during the monarchic period was two seats. The Brazilian people have always been negative about the republicans, but since the republican period was about successive military coups, there was no room for democracy in Brazil for a long time and the people gradually forgot as the years went by.

The Republican Parliament as the name says is mostly made up of Republicans, the politicians in Brazil love the Republican system because it allows many schemes of corruption, it is the same thing as the other Latin American republics and the people are almost never consulted except for the elections. Only with someone like Plínio Salgado or even Getúlio Vargas himself would he have the capacity to restore the Brazilian monarchy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This suggests a Mongolian tree as what's cooler than rebuilding the Mongol Empire?

Some of us have already done it, pretty crazy run.

But in WW2 times it stretches plausibility even harder than most of the other focus trees added. Though I suppose super Mongolia isn't too much of a reach compared to GD Spain throwing cores all over the place, fascist USA, communist Japan, or Napoleonic conquest of Moscow.

 

[Fulmen]

While the math is good, I'm not sure I agree with the premise. I can't for the life of me see how you consider only 8 of the countries with unique trees as being countries that "really participated in WW2 as combatant nations or were conquered very quickly."

Lets start with the original 8 (UK/Germany/Italy/France/Poland/USSR/USA/Japan)...only Poland falls into that category (they were conquered quickly). While the USSR/Italy/Poland have not gotten a rework yet they do have unique trees.

Then there are the 5 Together for Victory countries (Canada/Australia/New Zeeland/South Africa/The Raj) All participated heavily (relative to their individual abilities) in WW2.

Next are the 4 Death or Dishonor countries (Hungary/Romania/Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia) 2 (Hungary/Romania) participated heavily while 2 (Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia) were out relatively quickly.

Next is Waking the Tiger (China (I consider this to be 1 tree that is shared between all the Chinese countries) plus reworks for Germany/Japan). So the 1 country with a new tree participated heavily in the war.

Man the Guns could go either way (Mexico/The Netherlands). Mexico didn't really (directly) participate in the war (except for a single Fighter Squadron), and European Netherlands fell quickly, so neither really counts towards your criteria.

La Resistance added Spain (again 1 shared tree) which technically didn't participate in WW2, but they definitely participated in War during (or immediately preceding it) and Portugal which didn't directly participate in the war but certain aspects of its 'neutral' involvement were certainly important to the overall war. So again neither new country counts towards your criteria.

So by my math we have 7+5+1=13 out of 8+5+1+2+2=18 or 13/18=72% of the countries with unique trees (prior to the next DLC) having "really participated in WW2 as combatant nations".

So far all we know for sure is Greece and Bulgaria for the next DLC. Both participated in the war, but not in a major way. Greece fell quickly (once Germany joined the fight) and Bulgaria didn't really do much except assist in the Balkans. (They never declared war on the USSR.) If Turkey gets added they also wouldn't fall into that, although like Portugal they played the various combatants off each other for their own purposes.

First off, you've got it backwards: I said 8 nations (9 with Manchukuo) that did not really participate as combatant nations, or were conquered quickly.

Second, I already answered your entire post here before you even wrote it.

Please be more mindful of what has actually been said before replying to it.

EDIT:

Raj before France and Poland is a pretty hot take I don't think I've ever seen before.

Are you seriously trying to say France or Poland performed better in WW2 than British India? That's laughable.

As for who'd get country content first in my books (which it appears you thought that list was, despite it clearly saying otherwise), I cover that here.

Note:

I'd cut France and Italy some slack, even though combined they performed worse than some European minors did alone, but since they were important majors in the interwar period, I'd give them trees at game release, though without silly fantasy stuff and with more historical content instead of what PDX did.

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Turkey is a powerful minor. It has enough manpower/industry to actually influence things. It is at an extremely interesting geopolitical and strategic situation, sitting right in between Axis, Allied, and Comintern spheres of influence. It offers many interesting gameplay opportunities, and it's no wonder it's one of the most popular minors without a focus tree. It also offers a number of interesting possible political paths. It did have some influence through things like threatening to intervene if Bulgaria attacked Greece, causing Bulgaria to back down for a time.

Frankly I'm surprised it hasn't gotten a tree before now. A better question to ask would be why hasn't Turkey gotten a focus tree yet?

 

[SaydaNeen]

Turkey can be quite influential given its geological position. It definitely should have a peaceful side of the tree for a "default" for the AI but I think as a player there also should be goals, side with Soviets, side with Germans or re-create the Ottoman empire, ei. neighbor claims n such.

 

[Simon Marques]

I would like to play with Turkey if Paradox added a new scenario starting in 1922 with the rise of fascism in Italy in order to experience the Kemalist revolution. By the way, this is a very weak point of the game, having only two scenario options.