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Max_Damage

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Yeah and at some point at 1800+ rating you just have to choose between the meta decks. Below that point you can win with pz lehr, windhunt, 21 pz and 3rd armored no problem. For some reason im having trouble joining the cancer to beat cancer. Granted, the choice is still there between ~ 6 decks but the patch could make things fresh for sure.

Armored are good in clustered 3v3 games though (perhaps? not really playing those games).

Inf and airborne divisons get super good map control and super good veteran/elite at guns which when paired with map control allow to create good antitank defence even gainst phase A rush armored decks.
 

Hidden Gunman

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The thing that bothers me the most about the counter argument for making the game more balanced towards noobs is that it doesn't mean the hardcore players won't be the best of the bunch.

It's like too many people want the game to be this tiny exclusive club of players so the "cry babies" can piss off unless they plead for help or a mentor. That shit isn't efficient. Just make the game more attractive to a wider audience and let the tryhards beat up on one another at the higher ranks of the matchmaker.

Of course, we would need a functioning matchmaker that slots equally skilled opponents against one another for that to happen.
it's not so much balancing the game towards noobs, it's a matter of making it more appealing to them.

The L2P comments in relation to player numbers are smokescreening the fact that a lot of players don't like the game because it isn't fun at the moment, and don't want to invest a lot of time into it to get 'better'. In other words, the bulk of the players aren't interested in the ranked game, and probably never were, which means that an improved matchmaker system would probably not increase overall player numbers to any statistically significant amount.

It's not so much 'balance' that needed to change, but taking out the 'peak capabilities' and tweaking the phase availabilities. However, I think the horse has bolted on those issues, maybe it can be corrected with DLC rather than patching with former players more likely to respond to a new DLC/new game more than they will a patch. Note the past tense...
 

Herr_Robert

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That's kind of funny. Myself and my buddies found armoured decks to be the winner of battles. Lehr, 12ss, 2e France, pols. But what do I know, I only have a 97% win ratio...

With a 97% win ratio it sounds like you are only playing stacked games. Then it doesn't matter much what type of deck you are using... I agree that armored decks are important to win in larger team games, though. It seems like many of the forum members are mainly competetive 1v1 players. I mainly play 3v3s myself, but also some 4v4s.
 

DoubleDan68

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With a 97% win ratio it sounds like you are only playing stacked games. Then it doesn't matter much what type of deck you are using... I agree that armored decks are important to win in larger team games, though. It seems like many of the forum members are mainly competetive 1v1 players. I mainly play 3v3s myself, but also some 4v4s.
When I played we always named the lobby "premades" or "good players only' but half the time the people who joined had 20% or worse win rate. What I liked about coh 2 was that you could fight teams of players as good as your team
 
G

Gethsemani

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As one of those players that vanished after the first week, along with 5 or so friends, I can provide our perspective at least:
Short version: The game isn't fun enough to justify the frustration of facing far superior players.

Longer version: In our group there was 3 people who played one or more Wargame-games, two of us being sort-of decent and the last being a happy amateur by his own admission. The last two were completely new to the gameplay. In all the matches that we played, we had maybe two or so draws, no wins and a bunch of curb stomp losses when the opposing team deployed tricks that were far more advanced then what someone who just understood the recon mechanic could hope to manage. What made us jump ship was the fact that we could not realistically get away from pubstompers.

This is due to how WG/SD is designed, with a sharp learning curve to get the basics (recon mechanics, damage mechanics etc.) and then another sharp learning curve to become an advanced player. Advanced players will absolutely curb stomp beginners and intermediates, because WG/SD has very little in terms of beginner friendly mechanics or comeback mechanics. So unless you are completely hooked on Eugen's style of games, you will most likely end up in a bunch of lopsided battles were you can't even figure out what you could do differently, frustration will mount and eventually you will just stop playing, because it isn't fun losing 95% of matches that actually play to the end.

I am not sure this can actually be fixed or if any fix that can be deployed would be beneficial, as it would most likely drive the core player base away.
 

I WUB PUGS

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I was going to type something sarcastic to take the piss out out of the 'git gud'/'just watch youtube' crowd, but it doesn't matter. Your experience echoes that of about a dozen people I know that scrapped the game pretty quickly, and they had much better win rates than you.

A lot of the game is fun, but when you've got like a dozen things that are un-fun, wtf is the point.
 

Rojan

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As one of those players that vanished after the first week, along with 5 or so friends, I can provide our perspective at least:
Short version: The game isn't fun enough to justify the frustration of facing far superior players.

Longer version: In our group there was 3 people who played one or more Wargame-games, two of us being sort-of decent and the last being a happy amateur by his own admission. The last two were completely new to the gameplay. In all the matches that we played, we had maybe two or so draws, no wins and a bunch of curb stomp losses when the opposing team deployed tricks that were far more advanced then what someone who just understood the recon mechanic could hope to manage. What made us jump ship was the fact that we could not realistically get away from pubstompers.

This is due to how WG/SD is designed, with a sharp learning curve to get the basics (recon mechanics, damage mechanics etc.) and then another sharp learning curve to become an advanced player. Advanced players will absolutely curb stomp beginners and intermediates, because WG/SD has very little in terms of beginner friendly mechanics or comeback mechanics. So unless you are completely hooked on Eugen's style of games, you will most likely end up in a bunch of lopsided battles were you can't even figure out what you could do differently, frustration will mount and eventually you will just stop playing, because it isn't fun losing 95% of matches that actually play to the end.

I am not sure this can actually be fixed or if any fix that can be deployed would be beneficial, as it would most likely drive the core player base away.
If only there was a matchmaking system like COH2 that would match you against players of similar skill.
 

RoyalColor

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I don't think that good matchmaker would solve the issue entirely, but think it would somewhat improve the situation.

SD (and any Wargame) is very hard for casual audience, but there are other difficult to get into games out there, that make better job of introducing newbies into the game. Saying that Eugen did nothing would be unfair, as tutorial is actually an improvement over previous games, but still this is not enough.

All those things are major factor contributing to game losing players. Less players means longer waiting times to get into the match. After finally getting into the match, newbie gets stomped by the mechanics he doesn't understand and that translates into disappointment and feeling of wasted 1,5-2 hours. Given plentiful of options on the market, were you get an instant game and remote chance to win, it's no brainer that they quit.

I like the game and I will keep playing it as long as there are still matches to find, but honestly I don't see chances to remedy the situation.
 
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Herr_Robert

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I think a system like the one Age of Empires 2 has would be good for making the game more beginner-friendly. Basically, all games are ranked by default and you can see the player's ELO in the lobby. That allows the players to balance the teams or leave the game if the teams are stacked. For SD, custom games up to 4v4 with default settings (medium income, 40min timelimit and 500 starting points) should be ranked by default. To prevent statpadding, games without default setting or with a too small map size for the number of players should be unranked.

Just being able to view other players profile from the lobby would go a long way too.
 
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Person012345

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Offmap should have never been in this game, they aren't counterable, they're incredibly easy to use and they completely ruin the experience for someone who's carefully set up a town or forest defense.
Wargame: "wah, campers, camping, sitting around in a forest is OP, static game" Eugen: "Ok, here's a way to force players to move isntead of just setting up a static defense and sitting there" Steel Divison: "Wah, offmap is OP and it stops my turtling static defense"

Maybe I've just been playing wargame too long but it's honestly laughable that people always cite the exact opposite things as "ruining the game" each time they implement something to fix the previous complained about thing. I understand that people have different playstyles and prefer different things, but it's not each of these exact opposite things that are killing games. People will never be satisfied by anything.

Why does the Beute Firefly exist in Phase A? The allies don't have a single unit that can reliably counter it.
It's also largely unnecessary, an overinvestment of points for something with vastly overkill power against the typical phase A allied units. Yes it's powerful, but it's usually not worth the point investment at the beginning and without it there'd be cries of how this allied unit is OP or that allied unit is OP because the germans have nothing to counter it.

All of these things may be statistically balanced in some manner but they are a headache to deal with and suck every bit of fun out of the game. I find myself logging off very quickly now after I get hit with a bomber train that charges right through my AA and annihilates everything, thanks to the asinine sword and shield system that heavily favors airborne decks. Or after an enemy player takes the town I just fought 5 minutes to take and calls in a fuck-you-I'll-click-my-instant-win-offmap-arty button and level that entire town.
Instead of ragequitting, have you thought about, idk, modifying your tactics as to reduce the advantage of the enemies whilst promoting your own advantages instead of just doing the same thing over and over and getting owned in the same way? Maybe. Idk, maybe that's something that should be reserved for another genre, perhaps that's what clicker games are for idk.

It's like dealing with Maglans in Wargame Red Dragon but on steroids and almost every division has some near uncounterable unit that succeeds far more at ruining the experience for the other player than anything else
Many divisions have strong units that are countered by other units or clever tactics. I don't know if any of what you said is the "reason people are leaving" but frankly from where I'm standing, if this is the reason the playerbase is dropping off then it's more accurate to say that the playerbase is dropping off because nobody wants to play RTT games right now.
 

Rojan

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I think a system like the one Age of Empires 2 has would be good for making the game more beginner-friendly. Basically, all games are ranked by default and you can see the player's ELO in the lobby. That allows the players to balance the teams or leave the game if the teams are stacked. For SD, custom games up to 4v4 with default settings (medium income, 40min timelimit and 500 starting points) should be ranked by default. To prevent statpadding, games without default setting or with a too small map size for the number of players should be unranked.

Just being able to view other players profile from the lobby would go a long way too.

We had this in WG. The result was, that everybody tried to join the team with the better players. And the other team filled with unexperienced player,s which did not check the profiles.


This was in Wargame. I had to reset my stats about forty times if I wanted a match because it was impossible to have people wanting to play against me. Just make a damn matchmaker so people get put with other players of similar skill level.
 

throwaway

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We had this in WG. The result was, that everybody tried to join the team with the better players. And the other team filled with unexperienced player,s which did not check the profiles.
The solution to some newbies not checking winrates is NOT to make it impossible for all newbies to check winrates. A matchmaker is ideal, tools for players to manually matchmake is second best, removing those tools so people "playing with friends" can autowin is what Eugen opted for (I thought they'd have learned against that from ALB?).

Winrate checking isn't just for newbies, it's for everyone playing by themselves without a team of friends to bring in.
 
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I WUB PUGS

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1. Make single matchmaker.
2. All games count towards ELO.
3. Hide ELO and leaderboard behind player stats screen.
4. Introduce 10v10 maps AFTER you've released the game and gotten people to use the matchmaker.

Obviously, this is all too late so IDK fuggit.








Bringing back the 'view stats' option in the lobby is the single worst suggestion I've ever heard. It was a catastrophe in Red Dragon. Noobs getting kicked, good win rates getting kicked, nothing but stacks. It was the core reason behind the lobby-simulator.
 

integ3r

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ALB - Had no view profile button
- People drop like flies when the match starts
- Noobs join games they shouldn't, even if you put "no noobs" in the title
- People quit during match when they realize their teammates are noobs
- Good players end up playing bad players and not enjoying themselves.
- Bad players end up playing good players and not enjoying themselves.
- Teams could not be easily balanced even if you tried.
+ Can't easily dodge good players
+ Easier for noobs to get into a game

RD - HAD a view stats button
+ Good players looking for good players have a way of doing this.
+ Bad players looking for bad players have a way of doing this and have a warning before they get into an unbalanced match.
+ People playing with randoms have a way of assessing if the match will be fair
- Players can dodge / kick good players
- Harder for bad players to find matches (will get kicked)
- Easier for skilled players to find bad players and deliberately stomp them to infalte win ratios

Now in SD we are back to the ALB system.

There was a reason "view stats" was added to RD. People seem to have forgotten. People say it's sooo bad that people dodge or kick bad players. In truth, it allows people to self-matchmake, which was better than nothing, for better and worse. It really annoys me how people people just take a dump on the view profile system without considering all the data. If you ask me, it was worth the drawbacks. It's not perfect, but it was better than what we had. Yes, it was lobby simulator, but ALB was start a game, don't enjoy yourself, start another game, don't enjoy yourself simulator which was even worse. It was a goddamn nightmare if you were a good player looking for FAIR matches.
 
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Fade2Gray

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Blaming 10v10 nowadays seems... counter productive.

A chunk of the player base plays pretty much nothing but 10v10s. There's a lot of newbies I tried to work with that would always feel overwhelmed by anything other than 10v10. No matter how much I or others would work with them, they simply couldn't handle it and went back to 10v10 and stayed there. If you remove that from the game, I think all you are going to do is shrink the player base even more. Granted, those who only rarely play 10v10 might not notice the difference, but I fear it would hurt the game more than help it.
 

-HP-

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Blaming 10v10 nowadays seems... counter productive.

A chunk of the player base plays pretty much nothing but 10v10s. There's a lot of newbies I tried to work with that would always feel overwhelmed by anything other than 10v10. No matter how much I or others would work with them, they simply couldn't handle it and went back to 10v10 and stayed there. If you remove that from the game, I think all you are going to do is shrink the player base even more. Granted, those who only rarely play 10v10 might not notice the difference, but I fear it would hurt the game more than help it.

There are some of us that only play the game for 10v10. I like being part of a large team. I come from the competitive FPS community where that's the standard (Quake has never had the following of Counter-Strike). I get a lot more satisfaction out of succeeding as part of a group than the satisfaction I get out of succeeding alone.

So 10v10 is a very rare feature for RTS's (I can only think of World in Conflict outside of Eugen games) that sold me on Wargame: AirLand Battle and 95% of my time in WG and SD has been spent playing it. Remove it from the game, and I wouldn't have bought SD or WG.
 
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