Why the new job system -feels- wrong

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Delthor

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What constitutes poor play? I agree that adding and then staffing a ton of specialist jobs so your raw material production tanks is poor play, but making a system that requires a bunch of micro to accomplish "steadily add specialist jobs" isn't exactly leading to good play. A system that requires me to check back every few minutes to execute this seems like it should be in an RTS, where efficient player action is part of the skill. It doesn't belong in a GSG/4x.

Regarding large numbers of planets and supporting a big specialist shift, yes, you absolutely can absorb the impact of swapping workers to specialists if you are floating extra resources and production. If you aren't, or are adding quite a bit more specialists, you can still run into problems late game. And no, this isn't a planning problem because it CAN be mitigated with a boatload of clicking.

Poor play is tossing down buildings without care or consideration for the consequences. Or failing to maintain proper stockpiles to handle situations that may arise like refugees (if you accept refugees). Or failing to maintain the pop/job/amenity/housing balance. Or setting your economy up so that losing 5-10 workers instantly crashes your economy.

Proper play can avoid pretty much all the pop job micro people complain about doing. None of the things I do to avoid or mitigate this issue require micro:
1. Build a larger foundation of workers up front so that you don't dip negative even when some promote.
2. Maintain a stockpile so you can handle a negative balance while you grow the new pops needed to work jobs.
3. Use the market as a last resort due to its relative inefficiency.

If these three things aren't enough to absorb the shift as you promote pops, you're doing it wrong, and need to slow down your specialist expansion so that your pop growth and worker base can keep up. Yes, this means developing your planets as they grow and not building tons of stuff in advance. I don't really see that as micro, though, or at the very least, it's meaningful micro. I feel like it's the same as complaining the AI didn't adjust to enemy movements after you queued up a bunch of orders for your fleets. Whining about needing to micro your fleets in order to succeed in war is absurd; why is needing to actually think about your economy and properly time things any different?
 

Elordis

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I think, that biggest problem with "specialist trap" is in the UI.
Right now you see a yellow mark in ledger if planet has empty building slots. And yellow is bad. Not as bad as red, but still something you need to fix. So you open a planet and see a large "plus" sign there. And "plus" is good. It upgrades things, makes them more powerful. And then bam, all your miners go to alloy factories and you are in negative minerals.
Well, obviously, experienced players will know that yellow sign can be ignored and "plus" may not be good at all. But someone relatively new or worse returning from break (and thus accustomed to pre-2.2 economy) it will feel bad about it.
Right now game essentially provokes you into making wrong decisions while not telling you consequences of those decisions.
 

DaemarHavoc

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I do think the frustration of some people is mostly because of the lack of a tutorial. I love the new system, but I really enjoy trying to figure things out and had taken a break from Stellaris before the update (and I still was pretty confused at first playthrough).

Once you work out that RED UNEMPLOYED ICON plus OPEN SLOT ICON means that it is time to build something AND learn to check whether the resource cost of production can fit in your surplus (I have +20 alloys and this job will take -10), it is plain sailing. It took me a while to mentally separate JOBS from JOB SLOTS. Building a building that gives JOB SLOTS that can give me +10 energy does not instantly mean +10 energy.

BUT

Some Old players go in expecting Stellaris as usual, and/or some New players go in experimenting (and likely not reading and remembering every tooltip, because that isn't always a reasonable expectation). Everything CAN be worked out and then the economy system is great. BUT the "tutorial" does nearly nothing to explain strata, consumer goods, alloys, pop promotion, pop demotion, trade. It does not explain the risk of upgrading a building when you don't have a large surplus income of basic resources; it does not explain that you should not necessarily fill every building slot; it does not explain that upkeep costs of an empty district or building are often not worth having until you can fill it up with pops.

Some people are not going to like added complexity no matter what, but I think a lot more people would get into it if they were given some guidance. And sure you can go look up a youtube video or a guide, but at very least Paradox could link that in the game. This is par for the course for other Paradox games, though. I tried Crusader Kings II about 3 times before I watched a bunch of Youtube videos and finally got into it. Once into it, the game is nowhere NEAR as complex as it superficially appears, but it is just knowing how the systems interact that takes time.
 

Elordis

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Yellow doesn't work? What color would you prefer?
Green, preferably with number indicating amount of slots. And it should always be visible. That way player will understand that this simply an informational message and not something urgent that should be immediately dealt with.
Building tooltip should include immediate effect of building it e.g. "+0 alloys, no workers available" or "-20 minerals, miners*2 -> mettalurgist*20"
To be honest, both ledger and colony screen are in dire need of rework to make them more informative and usable.
 

DrFranknfurter

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Players "playing badly" *rolls eyes* or rather, not as the game intends is perhaps the reason it *feels* so bad. But the reason people play like that is because it is more productive but also more risky - tighter margins, bigger swings in production, more to keep in your head... lots of mental maths to work out how your production will actually change when each building is constructed. It's also much, MUCH less fun.


If you wait for unemployment, say 20 months per pop growth to produce a building... or until you have 3 pops unemployed for a consumer goods upgrade for example you would lose out on 1x60 + 1x40 + 1x20 months of pop output, so at a growth rate of +5.00 a month to play like people here keep insisting people play you are worse off by:
120 months of upkeep = 120 food or 150 food (Nutritional Plentitude), 12 consumer goods (stratified) or 30 (decent) / 120 energy (robot)
Using a random save for actual values rather than using default (unrealistically low) tooltip values:
120 months of pop production = 10.7 food (1284), 8.3 minerals (996), 6.77 energy (812.4), 2.5 Trade Value (300)


If you only start the building upgrade at that point you can add in another 600 days or 20 months output lost (140 months wasted... but 10 years of wasted output alone seems fairly bad to me. Also if you have a growth rate of +10 or merely +2 you would modify these numbers to 60 months wasted (x0.5 the above values) or 300 wasted (x2.5 the above, say 3210 food lost)
If you only upgrade when you have 3 clerks instead of 3 unemployed you're producing 300 trade value in that time, say 150 energy and 75 consumer goods (sells for 138, buy for 169.5 in the save). Net output 319.5 energy credits maximum value... (minus the 12 or 30 consumer upkeep for workers... but I've been ignoring the upkeep that these pops would have from city district housing either way, as well as the tiny increase in crime from unemployed)
So if you wait for unemployed pops you lose at least 812.4 energy, if you have clerks instead of technicians you lose 492.9 energy. It's never smart or efficient to use clerks or unemployed pops when you can help it. People saying otherwise are simply incorrect, but they are playing a more fun version of the game in their ignorance. (also you can add in the upkeep of 2 generator districts for 60 months, 120 energy before reductions and it would only change it to 692.4 and 372.9, but clerks also require city districts or a commercial zone so it's a bit muddy trying to compare upkeep).

But, once you see that it makes sense to avoid using unemployed or clerks whenever possible you do then have a problem. Upgrading that consumer goods building then has the issue that the building cost would not be the stated:
30 minerals --> 48 minerals
4 energy --> 5 energy
1 crystal --> 2 crystal
but instead depending on which of the above jobs it displaces:
30 minerals --> 48 - 72.9 minerals (min - max, miners displaced)
4 energy --> 5 - 25.31 energy (min - max, technicians displaced)
0 food --> 0 - 32.1 food (min - max, farmers displaced)
1 crystal --> 2 crystal
Clerks are useful to reduce these swings as the change sits just in between at 12.5 energy lost per month rather than 25.31, much less painful... but that's forgetting that every clerk you have is netting you more than -3 potential energy per month anyway due to their terrible output, so if you're sitting on 10 clerks you're already at -30 energy.

So if you're sat at a comfortable +100 of each resource. You could wait a decade with unemployed pops and lose out on about 1000 food or 10 months profit or 1 decision per decade (10% output lost to playing as people here keep telling people to play) or you could have farmers/miners/techs instead of unemployed/clerks. But if you do then building a consumer goods upgrade would change your balance by significantly more than you expect or anticipate from the tooltips. That's all from building a SINGLE building on a SINGLE world... if you have say 10 worlds, maybe upgrade 4 at once then you could be shifting from +100 to -71.6 minerals (not +40 minerals like the tooltips indicate). That is indeed playing badly... but it comes from trying to maximize job output combined with a complete dearth of information on the consequences of your actions.

So, you made a mistake 2 years ago ordering those upgrades. Fine, ok. One mistake, shouldn't be too hard to fix. If you panic and try closing buildings... it gets into a frustrating death-spiral trap territory. e.g. in the above example the hypothetical player could try closing 2 upgraded buildings (out of the 4 built). This would reduce upkeep by 96 minerals, but now you have 16 unemployed for 1800 days or 60 months, a loss of output of 16x60x8.3 minerals = 6048 minerals that you may have expected to get if they had merely demoted back to miners. Worse if you consider the increased upkeep of specialists in terms of food and consumer goods as well as the fact that you've just turned off 96 consumer goods production... 2.25 energy to buy each of those 96 goods so you've gone from +100 minerals, +100 energy and say +0 consumer goods (the reason you wanted them in the first place) to having +24 minerals, -116 energy, +0 consumer goods for the next 60 months (so you need to find 6960 energy from somewhere...).

So the mistake of upgrading a building too quickly could cost you:
6048 minerals and 6960 energy if you misjudge the costs. And the game has made you feel like a complete idiot.

BUT you weren't "being an idiot". Waiting for 3 unemployed pops on those 4 worlds would have cost you:
5136 food, 3984 minerals or 3294 energy.

So everyone here that's playing the game "as intended" are wasting thousands of minerals/energy/food. The others are having less fun and when they make one slip they fall into a painful death-spiral that makes them feel stupid. All because of the stratum auto promotion and delayed demotion mechanic. I love the idea of it... if anything I think it's incomplete because it lacks education and other complications... but I really wish people could see that it isn't perfect and that it feels designed to bite first time players. A better system would provide more information in the tooltips (the actual change when a building is built) as well as giving more flexibility (e.g. having clerk-equivalent specialist jobs that can be turned on/off or removing the demotion time).
 

WhapXI

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And yellow is bad

But pretty much everything of note in the outlier, unless it IS bad, is yellow. Fleet upgrades are a yellow arrow. Building upgrades are a yellow arrow. In terms of the outliner, yellow is the neutral colour. More to bring something to your attention than demand a solution, as the red does.
 

AlphaAsh

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Ignoring that pause isn't a viable options playing with other people, the existence of a pause function isn't an excuse for some actions taking inordinate amounts of actual player time. In my limited time to play, I don't want to spend too much time micromanaging pops. Right now this means accepting that I have to accept inefficiencies in order to avoid the UI issue.

Quote out of context. Please see the quote I quoted.

Singleplayer.

Of course pause in multiplayer is a no no. There is no solution in multiplayer to missing stuff that wizzes by, other than don't play multiplayer.

The gameplay loop is radically different now; look at the advice people are offering. Empire size over the cap? That's expected. Resource production in the red? Just trade something else on the market. Unemployment? That's when you construct new structures, and not before; some unemployment is a good thing. You've got positive and negative modifiers all over the place, and you have to do the math in your head to figure out what bad news is actually bad news.

It's *bad design*.

No, it's not. It's damn good games design. It's life is a harsh mistress, suck it up, games design. It's this crap is actually complicated games design. It's use your frickin noggin and don't just blindly click games design. It's exactly what I'd expect in a grand strategy game from the 'masters' of grand strategy. The issue for some is that it's a massive change from what Stellaris has been pre 2.2 - which was far more casual than PDX's usual fare.
 
Last edited:

The Boz

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Complicated and unintuitive are not the same thing.
Pops promoting instantly but demoting over a few decades is not intuitive.
 

Delthor

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So the mistake of upgrading a building too quickly could cost you:
6048 minerals and 6960 energy if you misjudge the costs. And the game has made you feel like a complete idiot.

BUT you weren't "being an idiot". Waiting for 3 unemployed pops on those 4 worlds would have cost you:
5136 food, 3984 minerals or 3294 energy.

So everyone here that's playing the game "as intended" are wasting thousands of minerals/energy/food. The others are having less fun and when they make one slip they fall into a painful death-spiral that makes them feel stupid. All because of the stratum auto promotion and delayed demotion mechanic. I love the idea of it... if anything I think it's incomplete because it lacks education and other complications... but I really wish people could see that it isn't perfect and that it feels designed to bite first time players. A better system would provide more information in the tooltips (the actual change when a building is built) as well as giving more flexibility (e.g. having clerk-equivalent specialist jobs that can be turned on/off or removing the demotion time).

I've never waited for unemployment before upgrading a building, nor do I employ clerks except for on dedicated trade worlds. I just do this stuff I mentioned here:

1. Build a larger foundation of workers up front so that you don't dip negative even when some promote.
2. Maintain a stockpile so you can handle a negative balance while you grow the new pops needed to work jobs.
3. Use the market as a last resort due to its relative inefficiency.

These don't waste tons of resources or require large amounts of micro. It's just using the systems in the game cleverly to keep things running smoothly.

And really... Do you guys just want to remove the teeth from the economy? Make it so it's extremely hard to screw up, easy to fix, and never has major consequences? To me, that defeats the purpose of the entire update. If the economy is just a toothless thing that you have to fiddle with a whole bunch, but won't ever punish you for screwing up, then the extra complexity is reduced to meaningless micro, since it no longer matters.

Is it frustrating when you screw up early on while learning? Sure. Is it also frustrating to doomstack, leave your territory undefended, and lose a bunch of systems and colonies to occupation while you scramble to bring your doomstack back? Yup. Is it frustrating to lose to a smaller fleet, only to find out later that they had a build that countered yours? Yup. Is it frustrating when you lose to the Khan because you don't know when to bend the knee? Yup. But you learn, you move on, and you play better instead of blaming the game. Sure, there are things they could do to ease the learning curve, but wanting there to be no consequences for mismanaging your economy is just ridiculous.

Practically every complaint about the new economy is something along the lines of not wanting there to be consequences. Instead of complaining about this, learn to respect the challenge of growing your economy, and approach it with all the care you take when fighting a war, crisis, or awakened empire.
 

AlphaAsh

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Complicated and unintuitive are not the same thing.
Pops promoting instantly but demoting over a few decades is not intuitive.

Social mobility not properly modelled. I agree that the lack of something to have a worker promote up in to specialist is an omission, and that abstaining from providing specialist vacancies is unintuitive. That I'd like to see rethought.
 

SpectralShade

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Quote out of context. Please see the quote I quoted.

Singleplayer.

Of course pause in multiplayer is a no no. There is no solution in multiplayer to missing stuff that wizzes by, other than don't play multiplayer.



No, it's not. It's damn good games design. It's life is a harsh mistress, suck it up, games design. It's this crap is actually complicated games design. It's use your frickin noggin and don't just blindly click games design. It's exactly what I'd expect in a grand strategy game from the 'masters' of grand strategy. The issue for some is that it's a massive change from what Stellaris has been pre 2.2 - which was far more casual than PDX's usual fare.

i like that you use the "out of context" defense when your own quote against mine was out of context too. I used singleplayer as a highlight to illustrate the baseline problem that gets multiplied in multiplayer because it's the same game in single and multiplayer.

But feel free to be a hypocrit.
 

AlphaAsh

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i like that you use the "out of context" defense when your own quote against mine was out of context too. I used singleplayer as a highlight to illustrate the baseline problem that gets multiplied in multiplayer because it's the same game in single and multiplayer.

But feel free to be a hypocrit.

I can't read your mind. I also did it on purpose.

Also, duh? My point still stands, regardless. You're supposed to use pause in order to handle things when it gets busy. You can't in multiplayer, so don't play multiplayer.

Or change the entire game so it's less busy and you can watch a movie whilst playing on fastest.
 

Elordis

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In terms of the outliner, yellow is the neutral colour. More to bring something to your attention than demand a solution, as the red does.
I may have exaggerated a little in my previous post, but that's exactly the problem I've stated. Right now, empty building slot is not something that requires attention. With current economic system you build things when you need them, not when you can. So, building slots are a resource, akin to minerals or starbase slots. They require strategic decision-making. And buildings themselves are like starbases not only do they have upfront cost, but a large running cost too. Having notifications about free building slots is like having a notification about simply having minerals or being under starbase cap.
 

PedroLuiz

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Players "playing badly" *rolls eyes* or rather, not as the game intends is perhaps the reason it *feels* so bad. But the reason people play like that is because it is more productive but also more risky - tighter margins, bigger swings in production, more to keep in your head... lots of mental maths to work out how your production will actually change when each building is constructed. It's also much, MUCH less fun.


If you wait for unemployment, say 20 months per pop growth to produce a building... or until you have 3 pops unemployed for a consumer goods upgrade for example you would lose out on 1x60 + 1x40 + 1x20 months of pop output, so at a growth rate of +5.00 a month to play like people here keep insisting people play you are worse off by:
120 months of upkeep = 120 food or 150 food (Nutritional Plentitude), 12 consumer goods (stratified) or 30 (decent) / 120 energy (robot)
Using a random save for actual values rather than using default (unrealistically low) tooltip values:
120 months of pop production = 10.7 food (1284), 8.3 minerals (996), 6.77 energy (812.4), 2.5 Trade Value (300)


If you only start the building upgrade at that point you can add in another 600 days or 20 months output lost (140 months wasted... but 10 years of wasted output alone seems fairly bad to me. Also if you have a growth rate of +10 or merely +2 you would modify these numbers to 60 months wasted (x0.5 the above values) or 300 wasted (x2.5 the above, say 3210 food lost)
If you only upgrade when you have 3 clerks instead of 3 unemployed you're producing 300 trade value in that time, say 150 energy and 75 consumer goods (sells for 138, buy for 169.5 in the save). Net output 319.5 energy credits maximum value... (minus the 12 or 30 consumer upkeep for workers... but I've been ignoring the upkeep that these pops would have from city district housing either way, as well as the tiny increase in crime from unemployed)
So if you wait for unemployed pops you lose at least 812.4 energy, if you have clerks instead of technicians you lose 492.9 energy. It's never smart or efficient to use clerks or unemployed pops when you can help it. People saying otherwise are simply incorrect, but they are playing a more fun version of the game in their ignorance. (also you can add in the upkeep of 2 generator districts for 60 months, 120 energy before reductions and it would only change it to 692.4 and 372.9, but clerks also require city districts or a commercial zone so it's a bit muddy trying to compare upkeep).

But, once you see that it makes sense to avoid using unemployed or clerks whenever possible you do then have a problem. Upgrading that consumer goods building then has the issue that the building cost would not be the stated:
30 minerals --> 48 minerals
4 energy --> 5 energy
1 crystal --> 2 crystal
but instead depending on which of the above jobs it displaces:
30 minerals --> 48 - 72.9 minerals (min - max, miners displaced)
4 energy --> 5 - 25.31 energy (min - max, technicians displaced)
0 food --> 0 - 32.1 food (min - max, farmers displaced)
1 crystal --> 2 crystal
Clerks are useful to reduce these swings as the change sits just in between at 12.5 energy lost per month rather than 25.31, much less painful... but that's forgetting that every clerk you have is netting you more than -3 potential energy per month anyway due to their terrible output, so if you're sitting on 10 clerks you're already at -30 energy.

So if you're sat at a comfortable +100 of each resource. You could wait a decade with unemployed pops and lose out on about 1000 food or 10 months profit or 1 decision per decade (10% output lost to playing as people here keep telling people to play) or you could have farmers/miners/techs instead of unemployed/clerks. But if you do then building a consumer goods upgrade would change your balance by significantly more than you expect or anticipate from the tooltips. That's all from building a SINGLE building on a SINGLE world... if you have say 10 worlds, maybe upgrade 4 at once then you could be shifting from +100 to -71.6 minerals (not +40 minerals like the tooltips indicate). That is indeed playing badly... but it comes from trying to maximize job output combined with a complete dearth of information on the consequences of your actions.

So, you made a mistake 2 years ago ordering those upgrades. Fine, ok. One mistake, shouldn't be too hard to fix. If you panic and try closing buildings... it gets into a frustrating death-spiral trap territory. e.g. in the above example the hypothetical player could try closing 2 upgraded buildings (out of the 4 built). This would reduce upkeep by 96 minerals, but now you have 16 unemployed for 1800 days or 60 months, a loss of output of 16x60x8.3 minerals = 6048 minerals that you may have expected to get if they had merely demoted back to miners. Worse if you consider the increased upkeep of specialists in terms of food and consumer goods as well as the fact that you've just turned off 96 consumer goods production... 2.25 energy to buy each of those 96 goods so you've gone from +100 minerals, +100 energy and say +0 consumer goods (the reason you wanted them in the first place) to having +24 minerals, -116 energy, +0 consumer goods for the next 60 months (so you need to find 6960 energy from somewhere...).

So the mistake of upgrading a building too quickly could cost you:
6048 minerals and 6960 energy if you misjudge the costs. And the game has made you feel like a complete idiot.

BUT you weren't "being an idiot". Waiting for 3 unemployed pops on those 4 worlds would have cost you:
5136 food, 3984 minerals or 3294 energy.

So everyone here that's playing the game "as intended" are wasting thousands of minerals/energy/food. The others are having less fun and when they make one slip they fall into a painful death-spiral that makes them feel stupid. All because of the stratum auto promotion and delayed demotion mechanic. I love the idea of it... if anything I think it's incomplete because it lacks education and other complications... but I really wish people could see that it isn't perfect and that it feels designed to bite first time players. A better system would provide more information in the tooltips (the actual change when a building is built) as well as giving more flexibility (e.g. having clerk-equivalent specialist jobs that can be turned on/off or removing the demotion time).
I just wanted to disagree with you again so I wrote a post:
  • I don't know where this 5 pop growth / 20 month figure came from, even in 01.02.2200 I already have a 5.5 PG/19M (or even 7.5 with mechanist) and mid game i'm at 10-15PG/10-7months so I'd average it at 7.7PG/13M or else you're being dishonest
  • If you're an egualitarian utopian abundance (or even shared burden) those unemployed pops are actually the best workers of their strata producing +2 Research and Unity
  • i just love how you "adjusted" for a save by just increasing the output but not the pop growth so you basically have a bigger (and untrue) gap
  • also you just inputed the trade value of the clerk but a clerk also produces 3 amenities at a cost (S. society) of 0.1 consumer goods and generates a net profit of 0.65 of them, so you can just ignore entertainers if you don't need the unity, and why would the technicians and clerks be competing? are you in a one planet challenge? i only have clerks active when they can't do anything else (and even then) because the worlds I build my industries on are highly urbinized so the jobs come "for free"
  • I also love that someone talking about "efficient play" are talking about using technicians instead of farmers, using technicians themselves net you less energy
  • another thing to point out: clerk jobs (specially after prosperity) give a ton of imigraton attraction if they're open, very important stuff if you can attract immigrants
  • by the same metrics yourself used (2y for an upgrade) you'd already have +2 pops so if you have 0 net unemployement by the time you started building you'd have a -1 NU when it's finished (and unless you're some retard that built a factory in a rural world that will be a clerk) so you don't really have a net minus