Why the HP gap between low and high tier units are so little?

[Tomipapa]

Hi guys!

I love everything so far, except one tiny little thing. I noticed how the hp gap between T1-T2-T3 units are quite small( at least for my taste). Every basic T1 and T2 unit showed thus far had very similar hp values(40 or 45), and the T3 units had 50 or 55. This means being a T2 unit does not come with more survivability in many cases, and a T3 only had 20-30% more HP over a T1. In AOW 3 higher tier units have noticeably more survivability. Orc Greatsword(T1) 50 hp, Orc Black Knight(T2) 60 hp ( 20 percent more), Orc Shock Trooper(T3) 75 hp (50 percent more than the T1). And this was pretty much a general rule for every race (caster type units were the only exceptions).
I know you guys want to make low tier units more usefull, just please dont fall the other side of the horse. I'm a bit concerned since now i have to research higher tier units and need to spend special resources. In the meantime low tier units can be heavily modified to be more useful. If i can mod a simple marine to have more hp/damage/armor than a costly / slowly researched tank/robot , then what is the point of having those units at all? So in your mission to make T1 more usefull, please don't degrade high tier units too much.

 

[mr_stibbons]

You need to consider the changes to how defences work-because it's a percentage damage reduction each point of HP translates into more effective hp on higher their units with higher defences.

Damage = initial damage * 0.9^(sum of defences), which means that effective hp= Hp/(0.9^sum of defences)

From the last dev diary for easy examples, a purifier has 40hp and a single point of armour, for an effective hp of around 44. meanwhile, the next unit in the progression, the t3 aegis tank has 50hp but 5 total defences, which works out to almost 85 effective hp, and the phoenix walker, with a bit less defences, has 76 effective hp. The gap is much larger than it might seem because many high tier units have much higher defences than lower tier units.

 

[Tomipapa]

You need to consider the changes to how defences work-because it's a percentage damage reduction each point of HP translates into more effective hp on higher their units with higher defences.

Damage = initial damage * 0.9^(sum of defences), which means that effective hp= Hp/(0.9^sum of defences)

The problem with the new armor system is that it is actually favours low tier units(damage wise) since it is a percentage damage reduction.

Lets say the vanguard marine (8 damage) attacking something with 0 defenc. 8*3=24
Phoenix walker(14 damage) attacking the same target : 3*14=42
the PW did 18 more damage than the marine.

Now they attack something with 5 defence
Marine 8*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9= 4.72 which is i guess rounded up to 5. 3*5=15
PW 14*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9=8.26 which is rounded down to 8. 3*8=24

That's only 9 more damage . The PW still did more damage but the damage gap between them is much smaller now. So the new damage calculation is nowhere near high tier friendly.

 

[Fluksen]

All your points are kinda valid. But:
- They are still in alpha stage and all numbers are bound to change anyway.
- Not only low tier units can be modified. High tier units get that too.
- You still have only 6 units per stack which means stackspace is pretty valuable, I actually agree with most (all?) that in AoW3 low tier units became obsolete too fast.
So I'm not concerned at all about higher tiers not being worth the investment at the moment.

 

[mr_stibbons]

Lets say the vanguard marine (8 damage) attacking something with 0 defenc. 8*3=24
Phoenix walker(14 damage) attacking the same target : 3*14=42
the PW did 18 more damage than the marine.

Now they attack something with 5 defence
Marine 8*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9= 4.72 which is i guess rounded up to 5. 3*5=15
PW 14*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9=8.26 which is rounded down to 8. 3*8=24

So you've gone from the big unit doing 1.75 times the damage to the big unit doing 1.6 times the damage through some favourable rounding? That doesn't favour smaller units, it treats both equally-you could easily end with a situation where the marine is getting the round down and the walker the round up. Compared to the last game this penalizes larger units, because the flat damage reduction made them more resistant to multiple weaker units than single stronger ones. But in the last game small units quickly were obsoleted, so I don't think that this is going to make them overly powerful. One of the central advantages of high tier units is their ability to concentrate more power into the limited stacks size available, and that hasn't changed.

 

[Jolly Joker]

For what it's worth, I disagree with the opinion that low-tier units become obsolete fast. It all depends on the kind of game you play (how many turns will the game last, what set-up and starting options do you pick, how big is the map), but you can generally say that all low-level units you build early in the game (there isn't much of an option to build higher-tier units early) retain their validity in the game because they simply gain HPs with XP. Later it depends. A Hunter is always useful due to mobility. A Hunter produced in a town with the archer city upgrade (+2/+1 shock damage) will always do acceptable damage. An Elven Hunter produced there will always be superior value for your money.

 

[Fenraellis]

You need to consider the changes to how defences work-because it's a percentage damage reduction each point of HP translates into more effective hp on higher their units with higher defences.

Damage = initial damage * 0.9^(sum of defences), which means that effective hp= Hp/(0.9^sum of defences)

From the last dev diary for easy examples, a purifier has 40hp and a single point of armour, for an effective hp of around 44. meanwhile, the next unit in the progression, the t3 aegis tank has 50hp but 5 total defences, which works out to almost 85 effective hp, and the phoenix walker, with a bit less defences, has 76 effective hp. The gap is much larger than it might seem because many high tier units have much higher defences than lower tier units.

To really stretch that example, against Thermal damage the Purifier has 3 defense rating for about 55 effective health(a 37.5% increase), but the Aegis Tank has 12 defense rating for about a whopping 177 effective health(a 254% increase)!

Suffice to say that Defense rating is a huge factor towards a unit's survival capabilities, with each single point providing an increase to effective health of 11.111~% over the last value before it.

So, if you think of a T3 unit commonly having both 50 vs 40 hp of an average T2 unit for a 20% increase, and say an average of 2 more defense rating for a 23% increase, that comes out to about 48% more effective health than a T2 unit. Nothing to scoff at. Keep in mind that even if they have the same set of defensive bonuses as each other, maintaining 2 more defense rating differential will always at least maintain a 23% relative increase in effective health.
(presuming averages of T2s at 40 HP and 2 or 3 Def versus 50 HP and 4 or 5 Def for T2 and T3 respectively)

Not to mention that aside from starting with higher health, they may also gain more health from rank promotions than lower tier units.

To compare that 50 health and 5 defense with a 35 health 1 defense T1 unit, it gets pretty stark. First off, about 43% more health. Then also a 52% effective health difference based on defense rating alone, coming out to roughly 118% more effective health than the T1 unit.

Then there is the force concentration notion brought up by others here and you can easily see why T3 units are going to be as costly as they are.

That being said, a lack of Cosmite upkeep, and production overflow, will make lower tier units still quite useful. Particularly depending on just what exactly will be able to be done with the myriad combinations of Mods available to tinker with.

 

[BloodyBattleBrain]

Aside from stats (and we haven't really discusses damage yet,) there's also unit abilities to take into account.


That bulwark looks pretty sweet...

 

[Dr_K]

Aside from stats (and we haven't really discusses damage yet,) there's also unit abilities to take into account.

From what we've seen so far, Stagger Resistance and Flying seem to be two of the more important abilities that could end up requiring some sort of stat offset for balance. So you might end up with a flying, ranged T3 unit with the HP of a T2 unit, but a slightly higher armor or shield rating.

Obviously, this depends on the actual prevalence of Staggering attacks, melee only units, and other related abilities.

Slightly related question, Firearms of various damage types are obviously ranged and should be able to target flying units. Do we know if AoE grenade and breath attacks target flying units at all? Or possibly a situation where some do and some don't?

 

[Fenraellis]

It seemed like the OWL wasn't included in the area of effect attack during the livestream, but I could be remembering incorrectly. Or I may be mixing up it's visual location relative to the area attack, with it's actual hex location, as a result of it's Flying status. Which might make the line for Aegis Tank in the latest Dev Diary more relevant:
" Aegis Tank: Projects shockwaves (kinetic for a change). Effective against air units. [...]."

 

[The Founder]

Hi guys!

I love everything so far, except one tiny little thing. I noticed how the hp gap between T1-T2-T3 units are quite small( at least for my taste). Every basic T1 and T2 unit showed thus far had very similar hp values(40 or 45), and the T3 units had 50 or 55. This means being a T2 unit does not come with more survivability in many cases, and a T3 only had 20-30% more HP over a T1. In AOW 3 higher tier units have noticeably more survivability. Orc Greatsword(T1) 50 hp, Orc Black Knight(T2) 60 hp ( 20 percent more), Orc Shock Trooper(T3) 75 hp (50 percent more than the T1). And this was pretty much a general rule for every race (caster type units were the only exceptions).
I know you guys want to make low tier units more usefull, just please dont fall the other side of the horse. I'm a bit concerned since now i have to research higher tier units and need to spend special resources. In the meantime low tier units can be heavily modified to be more useful. If i can mod a simple marine to have more hp/damage/armor than a costly / slowly researched tank/robot , then what is the point of having those units at all? So in your mission to make T1 more usefull, please don't degrade high tier units too much.

Well, first of course: "Non-Final Numbers are non-Final"

You need to consider the changes to how defences work-because it's a percentage damage reduction each point of HP translates into more effective hp on higher their units with higher defences.

Damage = initial damage * 0.9^(sum of defences), which means that effective hp= Hp/(0.9^sum of defences)

From the last dev diary for easy examples, a purifier has 40hp and a single point of armour, for an effective hp of around 44. meanwhile, the next unit in the progression, the t3 aegis tank has 50hp but 5 total defences, which works out to almost 85 effective hp, and the phoenix walker, with a bit less defences, has 76 effective hp. The gap is much larger than it might seem because many high tier units have much higher defences than lower tier units.

That is a very good summary, but there is even more to it.

Weapons - it is clear that weapon Systems are limited. A Infanterist will propably not carry a rocketlauncher or Minigun on the same level as the Walker from the gamepaly reveal Stream. That T2 or T3 unit can be way better based on the Offensive Options it has.

Modificaations: Something we also saw in the stream was mod stuff being limited. Like being able to equip Chemical Protection on Mechanical and Infantery units only
A unit without rocketlauncher is also propably not able to equip a Rocket Launcher Modifying Mod. Wich might add modifiers way crazier then "Flechette Ammunition".
Just having more mod/weapon slots in itself can be a advantage. Having more options is a boon.

Base Stats: Depending on the Opposition, just being Mechanical (in a otherwise Bio Army) or being a Ranged unit (in a melee army) can be a huge boon. You should look at the existing AoW games for examples, where each species has certain focuses.
Of course unless the enemy has the "Laser" line of weapons. Then mechanical is a big disadvantage.

It seemed like the OWL wasn't included in the area of effect attack during the livestream, but I could be remembering incorrectly. Or I may be mixing up it's visual location relative to the area attack, with it's actual hex location, as a result of it's Flying status. Which might make the line for Aegis Tank in the latest Dev Diary more relevant:
" Aegis Tank: Projects shockwaves (kinetic for a change). Effective against air units. [...]."

The owl was just outside. Regardless I doubt Mecehanical untis are subject to "Choking" effects anyway.

 

[The Founder]

The problem with the new armor system is that it is actually favours low tier units(damage wise) since it is a percentage damage reduction.

That's only 9 more damage . The PW still did more damage but the damage gap between them is much smaller now. So the new damage calculation is nowhere near high tier friendly.

That is a good thing, not a bad one. Few things are quite as annoying as being unable to put up a fight because the enemy got T2 or T3 units before you. Or loosing any initiative in a war, because you suddenly need T3 units to even be competitive.
Mind you there is a lot of room between "being unable to put up a fight" and "higher tiers being worthless". Both Maintenance, the XP Sytem, Weapon Options and the "6 untis per army" limit can incentivise bringing less boots to the fight.

The Forumal from the Dev Diary are:
Sum up all Applicable Shields, Armors and Resistances/Weaknesses.
Shields and armor do stack, but do not work against all attacks. i.e. Shields do not apply to Melee Attacks (making a high Shield Unit a ranged tank). While both are reduced by different debuffs.

If the result is positive, use this Formula:
D = I x 0.9^R
If the result is negative, use this Formula:
D = I + (I x (1 - 0.9^-R))
D is effective damge
I the initial damage
R is the sum of Shield, Armor and Resistance/Weakness

Taking the Incenerator Example:

With 8 Shields and 0 Armor, I can alraedy tell this unit will be very tanky against ranged but vulnerable to melee. Of course "Hyper Armor" sounds like a ability that might buff the armor.

Against range depending on type:
Generic: 8
Arc: 6
Thermal: 12
Psionic: 12

Against Melee depending on type:
Generic: 0
Arc: -2
Thermal: 4
Psionic: 4

If hit by a overly high 100 damage attack (just so we can get some nice percentage values from it), it will take:
Generic Ranged: 43 Damage
Generic Melee: 100 damage
Arc Ranged: 53 Damage
Arc Melee: 119 Damage*
Thermal/Psionic Ranged: 28 Damage
Thermal/Psionic Melee: 65 Damage

Putting it anywhere between "double overkill" and "need two non-glancing hits at least" with a ludicrously high 100 damage attack. With real figures like 20 damage it is closer 1/5 of those values. So anywhere between "3 hits" and "10 full hits".

*I admit I am not 100% certain on that value. The number of brackets, inverted negatives and complimentary values really makes this part confusing. But as 2 R would give 81% damage for -19%, this should be about right.

 

[The Founder]

With 8 Shields and 0 Armor, I can alraedy tell this unit will be very tanky against ranged but vulnerable to melee. Of course "Hyper Armor" sounds like a ability that might buff the armor.

Against range depending on type:
Generic: 8
Arc: 6
Thermal: 12
Psionic: 12

Against Melee depending on type:
Generic: 0
Arc: -2
Thermal: 4
Psionic: 4

If hit by a overly high 100 damage attack (just so we can get some nice percentage values from it), it will take:
Generic Ranged: 43 Damage
Generic Melee: 100 damage
Arc Ranged: 53 Damage
Arc Melee: 119 Damage*
Thermal/Psionic Ranged: 28 Damage
Thermal/Psionic Melee: 65 Damage

Okay, I messed that up completely. I mixed up "Armor" with "Shields". So this is actually a melee tank. So the defenses are:
Generic Melee: 8
Generic Ranges: 0
Arc Melee: 6
Arc Ranged: -2
Thermal/Psionic Melee: 12
Thermal/Psionic Ranged: 4

 

[Fenraellis]

There seems to be a bit of a mixup there. Armor is ignored by Psionic damage(and possibly the Kinetic damage from the Voidtech Secret Tech, but that's just a personal theory), and Shields are ignored by melee attacks.

The Phoenix Walker shown in your post would take the same damage from melee and ranged attacks, due to having no shields. Psionic attacks in general would ignore the armor value, though, making both Psionic melee and ranged attacks against it calculate against 4 Defense Rating of the Psionic Resistance. If it had shields, then Psionic ranged attacks(all ranged attacks, to be fair) would add the shield value to Defense Rating, though.

On a side note, the innate Psionic Resistance of Mechanical units, as seen in the latest Dev Diary, has since been reduced to 2. Down to a 19% reduction, rather than 34%.

 

[The Founder]

There seems to be a bit of a mixup there. Armor is ignored by Psionic damage(and possibly the Kinetic damage from the Voidtech Secret Tech, but that's just a personal theory), and Shields are ignored by melee attacks.

The Phoenix Walker shown in your post would take the same damage from melee and ranged attacks, due to having no shields. Psionic attacks in general would ignore the armor value, though, making both Psionic melee and ranged attacks against it calculate against 4 Defense Rating of the Psionic Resistance. If it had shields, then Psionic ranged attacks(all ranged attacks, to be fair) would add the shield value to Defense Rating, though.

On a side note, the innate Psionic Resistance of Mechanical units, as seen in the latest Dev Diary, has since been reduced to 2. Down to a 19% reduction, rather than 34%.

Wich affects wich attack was only a rough guess. After all if melee can skip Shields, would Thermal damage form dousing someone in Napal not also skip it, despite being ranged?

"Psionics skip armor, but are always affected by shields". Oh yes, I realized that way after I wrote that. Completely forgot to fix it.
It does raise the questions if there are any Psionic Melee attacks at all (as there is no defense except general Psionic Resisstance). Or if those would be affected by shields, despite being Melee attacks?

For the rest: "Non final Numebrs are non-Final"
It still does draw a somewhat clear picture.

If Kir'Ko use Psionic and Biological weapons, that makes them strong vs armor (Psionic Skips and Biological reduces armor). I guess they can somewhat skip shields via melee, but Mechanical would propably be an issue for them. Especially Mech with +Chemical Protection Mods.

 

[Dr_K]

If Kir'Ko use Psionic and Biological weapons, that makes them strong vs armor (Psionic Skips and Biological reduces armor). I guess they can somewhat skip shields via melee, but Mechanical would propably be an issue for them. Especially Mech with +Chemical Protection Mods

Although, they have those two tech trees, they also deal kinetic damage from some tankier units. Specifically the Ravenous, deals only Kinetic damage if I remember correctly, which should prevent them as a whole from becoming completely ineffective against primarily mechanical unit stacks.

Also regarding the Chemical Protection Mods, I'm not sure if they actually prevent the stripping of armor from Biological attacks. Even though it seems they should. In the initial gameplay stream the Frenzied's Projectile Vomit hit the Vanguard Walker and it stripped a point of armor off of it. That walker was modded with a "prevents all chemical/biological status effects" mod.

Not sure if a bug or intended behavior.

 

[The Founder]

Although, they have those two tech trees, they also deal kinetic damage from some tankier units. Specifically the Ravenous, deals only Kinetic damage if I remember correctly, which should prevent them as a whole from becoming completely ineffective against primarily mechanical unit stacks.

I did mention melee as a damage vector. Meaning it brings both "Kinetic" and "Shield Skipping" damage to the field.
There is a lot of room between "completely ineffective" and "200% damage effective".
Mixing your Race, Secret technology to get a good spot is kind of what unit and faction design is all about. Let me just quote a Dev on DD15 about this:

As for race/tech synergies, the idea is that you should be able to mod secret tech units with a lot of options, regardless of whether or not you have a matching weapon tech. The weapon tech will certainly give you more options, but that doesn't mean that a Vanguard player's Xenoplague units will be a lot worse than a Kir'ko player's, they will just be less varied.

You also need to take into account that, by doubling down on something that they already have, a kir'ko player limits their options by going Xenoplague. They already have good sources of bio-chemical damage, and horrible melee monsters so although they synergize very well with XP units, they don't bring that much new to the table in terms of tactical options. Going another secret tech, on the other hand, might give them easy access to arc damage, and a bunch of special options to use against enemy mechanical units. In other words, you can sacrifice synergy for flexibility.

It is not even like that is something new. Classes in AoW3 already had to option to either double-down on a racial strenght or compensate for a racial weakness. It is now just a bit clearer what needs to be compensated for and wich Class does that.

 

[Leon Feargus]

About the shields not being effective against melee attacks.
Does this seem odd to anyone else? Is there a rationale behind it?
If you take a look at the Dvar infantry from an earlier screenshot, they seem pretty comfy behind their huge shields.
I would assume they could block incoming claws as well as laserbeams.

 

[mr_stibbons]

About the shields not being effective against melee attacks.
Does this seem odd to anyone else? Is there a rationale behind it?
If you take a look at the Dvar infantry from an earlier screenshot, they seem pretty comfy behind their huge shields.
I would assume they could block incoming claws as well as laserbeams.

I think it's a reference to Dune, where abundant and busted energy Shields made everyone fight with knives despite having spaceships. The Dvar riot shield troops probably don't have any points of Shields - just high Armour and exposed flanks, like the bike. Shields is for energy defences.

 

[Damkac]

I wonder if there are psionic melee units. That would make them skip both armor and shield. Sounds pretty OP so I don't think we'll see psionic blades.