Why the haters of Gigantic realistic cities?

[DrJamesWhite]

I like to know why they are so many haters of big massive cities?

Sorry for making another thread but the moderator can delete the other thread.

A few statements about us players who like realistic cities.
Those that want to build realistic cities are called complainers.
Cant you just let the dev do what they want?
9 tiles are big enough why do you want more?!!
It full sim only! Go away and play cities XXL if you want bigger cities.

Can I just ask what is the issue of having an option so if hardcore players want to be able to set how many agent they want in the game they can have the freedom to so? They have a preferences of 0-1mil and they can choose any number of agents. If they choose 100,000 agents then they also have the option to also have pre set animation or statistics to make it look like life.

For players who want full agents they dont need to change anything and can play as default. And when they get bored then they can try out this hardcore feature and turn on the option in the game.

Having this option will get around most of the complex issues surrounding the demand the agents have on the CPU.

You cannot fit a massive large realistic city in 9 tiles. 1 tile is 2km2. And even with 25 it still is small so why i came forward with a solution for the developers. You can fit parts of it but not all of it. Like Los angeles 100km is still too small. I can only cover parts of the city and none of the country side. I had a look at google map.

City 503 sq mi (1,302 km2)
• Land 469 sq mi (1,214 km2)
• Water 34 sq mi (88 km2) 6.7%

I read that you can resize it to fit but i am not sure how well that will go if that happens?

I know its not possible to have all 1000km not expecting that but perhaps one day it could be possible!

But just thinking that if Agents weren't in the way would it be possible to go like 50 tiles?

But I just was presenting an option so players who want full life and those that want part life and preset animation can have it and everyone hates it like it will ruin the entire experience of the game.

Why cant it be possible for the developers to have an option for players to have this feature? It can be part of the hardcore feature and will not ruin the exp for those who want full life.

The developer have not said that this can't be in the game so i just like to know why everyone hate this idea when it does not impact your gaming experience?

With this option the developer could support all 25 tiles with out issue on hardcore mode. At least the processing power of the agent have been minimized.

Would this be a difficult thing for the developers to have this option?

Modders wont have to try and fix certain issues using all 25 tiles on hardcore mode because they just wont be any issue with the agents. Its only in normal mode that they will be issues.

And with generating using procedural method would the avg desktop be too slow for this? There is the game crew that has a whole scale down America. But if the avg desktop cannot handle this offline let me know.

So far i have not read any good suggestion why this cant be possible as an option? So please explain why it just a bad idea if it can help a little with the complex issue of having full agents?

I really like to hear some technical remarks on this if this will not work?

The CO team has gone a long way to make the game very flexible and that is very good to hear!!! Like companies that uses the community to develop their game to make it better.

And so far i have not read any good answer why this cant be possible as an option? So please explain why it just a bad idea if it can help?

If the developer says the game will always be small and always be 25 tiles then ok! But the developers did not make the game just so it can be small like simcity 2013. But if it will help? I keep saying then why not have it?

When computer can handle more then 1mil and can have tiles more then 1000km then well the preset animation wont need to be in there anymore.

So please give a good reason!

And I have never said I did like not the way the game was made. Its so much better then cities XL and the simcity series! Again it just all about having massive realistic cities and finding ways to make it possible.

 

[AKicebear]

You obviously feel strongly about the title and think there is massive demand for something easily provided - so please, develop the game of your dreams for all of us to enjoy!

 

[hert]

I cant tell what side your fighting on, you seem to contradict yourself a lot.

 

[DK115]

How about buying a house in London, or Paris or New York instead of buying a computergame? Then you have your Gigantic Realistic City ...

 

[BStyles]

Here's an answer to sum it all up. No massive city on earth has been replicated in its full scale since the likes of SimCity 4 in any city builder that has been released to-date, with good reason. SC4 was largely 2D; in a 3D environment, the rules change. This city builder will be no different. If you want massive cities then you might as well wait until someone decides to make the entire earth your simulated playground.

Everyone assumes to death that it's completely easy to unlock all 25 tiles and then some, and go beyond the limitations set in place. They tried that with SC2013, and it didn't work out that well. Eye candy, yes, but not much functionality.

The agents are the very basis of the game, which are the 1m citizens trying to make do in a city 9 tiles big, not some ridiculously large city meant to be eye candy, that was never Colossal Order's goal. The goal was to create a city builder to build functioning cities, not massive ones. But again, there's SC4. You're pursuing this more passionately than most, on resources not currently available, and you have ignored multiple reasons as to why it cannot be done at the moment.

I don't know about you, but I want a game that WORKS, rather than something I can throw a wrecking ball at.

 

[bjclang]

Dear OP, your posts and previous threads are rich of text but empty in soul. You start with a bold title called: "Why the haters of Gigantic realistic cities?".
This will only cause a toxic environment in the pdx forums. Nevertheless..

Cities are cities because people live inside them, not because its filled with concrete and bricks.

 

[Atomic_Universe]

I'm not against big cities Dr Whites....if you want a big city you do it.

 

[ChaplainDMK]

Here's an answer to sum it all up. No massive city on earth has been replicated in its full scale since the likes of SimCity 4 in any city builder that has been released to-date, with good reason. SC4 was largely 2D; in a 3D environment, the rules change. This city builder will be no different. If you want massive cities then you might as well wait until someone decides to make the entire earth your simulated playground.

Everyone assumes to death that it's completely easy to unlock all 25 tiles and then some, and go beyond the limitations set in place. They tried that with SC2013, and it didn't work out that well. Eye candy, yes, but not much functionality.

The agents are the very basis of the game, which are the 1m citizens trying to make do in a city 9 tiles big, not some ridiculously large city meant to be eye candy, that was never Colossal Order's goal. The goal was to create a city builder to build functioning cities, not massive ones. But again, there's SC4. You're pursuing this more passionately than most, on resources not currently available, and you have ignored multiple reasons as to why it cannot be done at the moment.

I don't know about you, but I want a game that WORKS, rather than something I can throw a wrecking ball at.

And SC4 was also split up into much smaller cities than Skylines.

 

[DrJamesWhite]

Here's an answer to sum it all up. No massive city on earth has been replicated in its full scale since the likes of SimCity 4 in any city builder that has been released to-date, with good reason. SC4 was largely 2D; in a 3D environment, the rules change. This city builder will be no different. If you want massive cities then you might as well wait until someone decides to make the entire earth your simulated playground.

Everyone assumes to death that it's completely easy to unlock all 25 tiles and then some, and go beyond the limitations set in place. They tried that with SC2013, and it didn't work out that well. Eye candy, yes, but not much functionality.

The agents are the very basis of the game, which are the 1m citizens trying to make do in a city 9 tiles big, not some ridiculously large city meant to be eye candy, that was never Colossal Order's goal. The goal was to create a city builder to build functioning cities, not massive ones. But again, there's SC4. You're pursuing this more passionately than most, on resources not currently available, and you have ignored multiple reasons as to why it cannot be done at the moment.

I don't know about you, but I want a game that WORKS, rather than something I can throw a wrecking ball at.

And it was never the goal anyway for the team to have it just on simulating life. They created it because of hardcore players who want realistic cities.

Please read my post I did not say I wanted a full simulate earth. But if you want talk about simulation then I can say yes it can happen if was online as other massive online world have done. It just offline which is not possible.

Please read my post again about having a game that works. It can work for both normal players who stay in limit and those that want to cover all 25 tiles.

You and others have not given me a proper detail reason why my idea should be ignored.
I have previously given detail ideas that technically could be done if the developer do use it. And the only reasons I hear are just opinions. I dont want opinions. As I already know they are those that just like it with 9 tiles.

Please read my post again. About options for limiting agents so building are not restricted.

Perhaps to make it clear what I am asking is if anyone is exp on the technical details I want to hear the reasons. Instead of opinions like the game is made for simulation, it will be hard, etc. just go else where. These are not sufficient reasons why my ideas are just useless.

The developer can decided if they want it or not but as said i still dont know why you hate massive realistic cities?

None of you have added anything that can help the game but I have.
None of you have taken lots of time writing out an idea that can really help.

So please stop with the low statements, I have not told any of you to go away and that you wanting life is a silly idea.

Please come up with proper comments that will help like I have done. Or proper rejection comments.

Eventually your all going to get bored with 9 tiles and like it to be optimize for 25 and above. So the idea i have posted is one solution to that one day. If you want to wait so you can have 5+ mil and use no shortcut you be waiting a long time! Using shortcuts can cut this wait.

You will need a new computer too if you want to wait till 5+ mil can be optimize properly by the team. You might need an i7 to run 5+ mil. And if your want that you can! But dont stop the hardcore players of wanting other choices.

Its why the team made it so flexible and not lock it like sim series or city XL with lots of bugs and unhappy customers.

Please stop using statement that the game was not made for massive cities. The scale as you know is already many time bigger then the sims.

If they wanted small functional cities then players would stick with sim 2013.

 

[Person012345]

How about buying a house in London, or Paris or New York instead of buying a computergame? Then you have your Gigantic Realistic City ...

GREAT ARGUMENT. IF YOU WANT A COMPUTER GAME WHERE YOU CAN BUILD LARGE CITIES, YOU REALLY SHOULD BUY A HOUSE IN LONDON. VERY AMAZING GUD LOGIC.

notallcaps

 

[Mendeth]

And it was never the goal anyway for the team to have it just on simulating life. They created it because of hardcore players who want realistic cities.

Please read my post I did not say I wanted a full simulate earth. But if you want talk about simulation then I can say yes it can happen if was online as other massive online world have done. It just offline which is not possible.

Please read my post again about having a game that works. It can work for both normal players who stay in limit and those that want to cover all 25 tiles.

You and others have not given me a proper detail reason why my idea should be ignored.
I have previously given detail ideas that technically could be done if the developer do use it. And the only reasons I hear are just opinions. I dont want opinions. As I already know they are those that just like it with 9 tiles.

Please read my post again. About options for limiting agents so building are not restricted.

Perhaps to make it clear what I am asking is if anyone is exp on the technical details I want to hear the reasons. Instead of opinions like the game is made for simulation, it will be hard, etc. just go else where. These are not sufficient reasons why my ideas are just useless.

The developer can decided if they want it or not but as said i still dont know why you hate massive realistic cities?

None of you have added anything that can help the game but I have.
None of you have taken lots of time writing out an idea that can really help.

So please stop with the low statements, I have not told any of you to go away and that you wanting life is a silly idea.

Please come up with proper comments that will help like I have done. Or proper rejection comments.

Eventually your all going to get bored with 9 tiles and like it to be optimize for 25 and above. So the idea i have posted is one solution to that one day. If you want to wait so you can have 5+ mil and use no shortcut you be waiting a long time! Using shortcuts can cut this wait.

You will need a new computer too if you want to wait till 5+ mil can be optimize properly by the team. You might need an i7 to run 5+ mil. And if your want that you can! But dont stop the hardcore players of wanting other choices.

Its why the team made it so flexible and not lock it like sim series or city XL with lots of bugs and unhappy customers.

Please stop using statement that the game was not made for massive cities. The scale as you know is already many time bigger then the sims.

If they wanted small functional cities then players would stick with sim 2013.

I don't think you quite appreciate what the Devs have said regarding the technical limitations of expanding past 9 tiles. 25 tiles is possible but the possibility for issues to arise is so great that they are offering no support whatsoever to those who do so. Given that, asking them to expand the game further is nonsensical. Besides, I haven't read - and I apologise if I've missed it said somewhere - that the size of the population has a direct affect on how many tiles can be used. Do you have a quote from CO to this effect? From what I've read and heard, your 'solution' is based on an assumption which you have no way of proving.

How do you know for sure that 9 tiles won't be enough? Ok it may not be an accurate reflection of some city sizes but unless you have a supercomputer at home you will not be able to simulate a 'real' city. Stating that 'your [sic] all going to get bored with 9 tiles' is pure fantasy.

I have previously given detail ideas that technically could be done if the developer do use it. And the only reasons I hear are just opinions. I dont want opinions. As I already know they are those that just like it with 9 tiles.

Of course you will get opinions. That is what everyone is offering, including your not-so-humble self. As the game isn't out yet people are limited to their knowledge of hardware and presumptions based upon information revealed by CO and PDX.

It's also not acceptable, in my opinion, to claim that those who want more than 9 tiles are 'hardcore', implying that the rest of us who are happy and impressed with CO's design are amateurish, or not as dedicated to the game as the 'hardcore' fan(s).

 

[Bel_Alex]

Guys, you, who want cities more than 100km^2 and population more than 1M. Do you know about word like "SCALE"? Really looks like you need to find out.

There is in russian community a few same guys too. And a few more want realistic highways (really tired, also idea for next game for CO: "Highway Simulator", looks like it will be VERY successful), and a few more want something else... Finally this is just guys who do not understand what things what VERY IMPORTANT for their, really do not important for gameplay and 99% gamers.

Or what their PC just explode with cities more than 100km^2 and population more than 1M.

 

[Nyarlathotep78]

Is it reallay that difficult to understand that you will have to do some sort of compromise between what´s possible with the game-engine itself, the average user´s PC-config and all the different calculations the soft- and hardware have to manage?

So considering this, as long as you´re no programmer I really don´t know why you are so sure that your "technical suggestions" would work at all...
Sure, posting some vague Ideas is never a bad thing but whishes do not necessarily come to, cause some of them just can´t.

Personally I would love a game scale of maybe even 50 tiles and no population cap as well, so I could build a whole region in one single map, but...

I´m quite sure that we would get it if the dev´s could do it with the engine, so when they are stating that the engine or pc couldn´t handle it, there´s good reson to believe them, at least they know their code....

 

[Dyson_raf]

Ive read your posts with interest and I'll certainly give you points for persistence. I do not know why you are so keen on watering down the simulation in the game just to get bigger maps. You make comparisons to SC13 and this game. These maps are 9 times larger. There has to be a trade off between simulation and size. I see the argument for both but I think it would be a massive step backwards to reduce simulation back to representations. To say why dont CO offer two options I dont think you realise how much work they would need to do to start redesigning representations of the simulations and massively expanding maps. I dont think i am alone in thinking the majority of players want what CO are putting out over representations of traffic and people over actual Cims.

As i started out saying i give you praise for your persistence and passion but think your probably best on moving on from CSL as I dont see this ever getting what your looking for.

 

[ma2412]

Is it reallay that difficult to understand that you will have to do some sort of compromise between what´s possible with the game-engine itself, the average user´s PC-config and all the different calculations the soft- and hardware have to manage?

So considering this, as long as you´re no programmer I really don´t know why you are so sure that your "technical suggestions" would work at all...
Sure, posting some vague Ideas is never a bad thing but whishes do not necessarily come to, cause some of them just can´t.

Personally I would love a game scale of maybe even 50 tiles and no population cap as well, so I could build a whole region in one single map, but...

I´m quite sure that we would get it if the dev´s could do it with the engine, so when they are stating that the engine or pc couldn´t handle it, there´s good reson to believe them, at least they know their code....

+1

first, we should all play the game
second, check all fixes and mods
third (for all for who size does matter over function - both is not matter for todays hardware), hope for better hardware and CSL2

and please do not use words like "hater", as they are not good for communities...

 

[BStyles]

Most of it is driven by opinions, but what I'm saying are facts which have come straight from the developer. You're not going to get a clearer answer than this.

And it was never the goal anyway for the team to have it just on simulating life. They created it because of hardcore players who want realistic cities.

This is in fact false. According to their video Our Passion for Cities: Skylines, they said the goal was to build big and complex, working cities, not realistic ones, which includes the agent system in order for this to work hence the "life" concept. They took ideas out of life and mixed them into formulas that would work for the game. They never said that they would support anything over 1m, which seems to frustrate people somehow. In a game that has not been released yet, no one can tell just how hard it is to attain it.

Please read my post I did not say I wanted a full simulate earth. But if you want talk about simulation then I can say yes it can happen if was online as other massive online world have done. It just offline which is not possible.

Whether it was online or not is irrelevant. It's the way the engine works in tandem with the processing power. Somewhere or somehow, something is telling you that if a game is online, it will be able to run massive cities and I tell you right now, that is also false. This is why SimCity's cities were so small, and why it should have never been brought into multiplayer in the first place.

Please read my post again about having a game that works. It can work for both normal players who stay in limit and those that want to cover all 25 tiles.

You and others have not given me a proper detail reason why my idea should be ignored.
I have previously given detail ideas that technically could be done if the developer do use it. And the only reasons I hear are just opinions. I dont want opinions. As I already know they are those that just like it with 9 tiles.

If the game could truly work with 25 tiles then the developer would have released it at 25 tiles. However, minimum requirements do not allow for that, which is why it has not been supported by the developer to support that. You have obviously not looked at how the Unity Engine really works. It's quite a piece of work which requires some research, on your part. This is what makes it difficult to comprehend what your saying...because it makes no technical sense.

You previously stated:

Can I just ask what is the issue of having an option so if hardcore players want to be able to set how many agent they want in the game they can have the freedom to so? They have a preferences of 0-1mil and they can choose any number of agents. If they choose 100,000 agents then they also have the option to also have pre set animation or statistics to make it look like life.

The game was built from the ground up to support 1 million agents. Scaling, if even possible, would make it even less of a city builder than the one you want, and that's fake. In this day and age, consumers do not want fake or fudged numbers. That was cute when we didn't have the technology, but it's not like that anymore.

On that note, the agents aren't removable, that's the basis of the Unity Engine. In Cities in Motion, they have done the same thing with the same engine, and it has worked successfully. To remove the agents would mean to remove the population, which would result in a non-functioning city-builder of zero inhabitants, which is the exact opposite of your city of millions. The game itself would be reduced to a map editor.

To sum that up, just like SC2013, the agents are NOT removable.

The developer can decided if they want it or not but as said i still dont know why you hate massive realistic cities?

I love massive cities. I live in New York City, however I am well aware that I will never be able to replicate that in any game except SC4. The developers have decided that the population's hard cap (not editable except by breaking the game) is set to 1,000,000 and I'm content with that, for now. I just want a good, working city builder that will have the full support of the developer for a long time.

Sure, I want all 162sqkm of the map available. I'm well aware that it's not available right now, but I'm willing to wait for the day the devs say they've found the way to make the game go further and release it in a DLC or a patch. You just can't have everything on day one.

Eventually your all going to get bored with 9 tiles and like it to be optimize for 25 and above. So the idea i have posted is one solution to that one day. If you want to wait so you can have 5+ mil and use no shortcut you be waiting a long time! Using shortcuts can cut this wait.

Using shortcuts sounds a lot like something EA would do. And what do you know, a prime example of that is SC2013. For one, I never got bored with SC4. I never got bored with Cities XL. SC4 was from an earlier time and Cities XL was incompetent. Cities: Skylines offers so much more with the virtue of patience that some people don't understand what that means. It would be even more boring to have your massive cities with no mods, no DLC's, no game patches, and no official support from the developer. That's EA all wrapped up for you.

This quote is an example of an opinion. How do you know the game will get boring for players if you yourself, or anyone else in the community for that matter, have not played it yet? You keep telling us that we shouldn't say that, but what other evidence is there? A YouTube video of people who have no expertise in City Building? Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Perhaps to make it clear what I am asking is if anyone is exp on the technical details I want to hear the reasons. Instead of opinions like the game is made for simulation, it will be hard, etc. just go else where. These are not sufficient reasons why my ideas are just useless.

This is the exact opposite. The developers themselves have told us that it is not possible, so what everyone is relaying may be based on an opinion, but is backed by facts. If you feel that you have the technical expertise to pass these hurdles then you should be working at Colossal Order, or designing your own video game. Otherwise I will go off of what the developers have told me, and these are developers I can trust.

You and others have not given me a proper detail reason why my idea should be ignored.
I have previously given detail ideas that technically could be done if the developer do use it. And the only reasons I hear are just opinions. I dont want opinions. As I already know they are those that just like it with 9 tiles.

Your idea is not being ignored, it is not being looked at, at the moment. CO has a plan, and it will last a very long time. The people wanting every single thing on day one is neither helping the developers, or the community reading these posts.

Again, if you have ideas on how this should work, then you should have asked a question at the AMA, or, shoot the devs a PM stating why the ideas you've posted would work, and allow them time to give you a one on one as to why it would, and wouldn't work. The forums are filled with people with opinions, and people who have actually done programming for things much more grandiose than a city-builder.

You will need a new computer too if you want to wait till 5+ mil can be optimize properly by the team. You might need an i7 to run 5+ mil. And if your want that you can! But dont stop the hardcore players of wanting other choices.

My computer has been built for the next 5-10 years. I am not worried about it being able to run this city builder, however, sometimes the hardcore players need to learn when to be patient. The things you yearn for will come at a later date.

Its why the team made it so flexible and not lock it like sim series or city XL with lots of bugs and unhappy customers.

Incorrect, they made it flexible for thousands of modders to have the freedom to make content and ideas that CO couldn't possibly do, as a 13-strong team. They do not support the modders unlocking all 25 tiles, if not more.

Please stop using statement that the game was not made for massive cities. The scale as you know is already many time bigger then the sims.

That is a technicality. The scale is meant for creating the region that your city will reside, whether it is based off of real landscape or not. It was not meant, at this time, to be readily available for a 162sqkm city. Think of it as the water that surrounds San Andreas in GTA V. You will be turned back eventually, and that is the real boundary.

If they wanted small functional cities then players would stick with sim 2013.

You just compared two games that are entirely different in scope. It also tells me that you are one of the many got burned on launch day. One city plot in SimCity equals one of the nine tiles offered to you in the basic version of Cities: Skylines. The devs gave you nine, and you ask for 25, then they give you unofficial support for 25, and you ask for even more, and a chance to remove the agent system to go further. It's no longer about the negativity towards massive cities, now it just boils down to a bunch of players who aren't happy with the opportunities that have been given to them.

 

[bibihest]

I know it's to late now, but just some random idears for Skylines 2 .

Instead of a tile limit, it could have been a km2 limit. As long as you are below the 36km2 buildable area (9 tiles), you could unlock more tiles. So splitting a map in two with a big river in the middle, would give you more tiles to build on.

Another idear could be to not force people to unlock tiles next to each other, but be able to maybe unlock 4 in one end of the map and 5 in the other end and then only allow building of roads between them.

When the game is finally released, we will all forget about this anyway and play the game:wub:

 

[Bel_Alex]

It's no longer about the negativity towards massive cities, now it just boils down to a bunch of players who aren't happy with the opportunities that have been given to them.

Indeed. Finally, always someone unhappy with _any_ possibilities.

 

[charlesnew]

snip

If they wanted small functional cities then players would stick with sim 2013.

The thing is, SimCity5 doesn't have small functioning cities.
And if you want huge not so functioning cities, you can play Cities(X)XL

 

[Tridon]

From what we can see thus far, keeping in mind that we haven't been able to play it yet, the game seems to improve on certain points compared to other games on the marked
-Bigger maps and simulation than SimCity 1013
-Better simulation and performance that Cities XXL
-Bigger loaded playing area than SimCity 4,more advanced simluation, as well as modern graphics in comparison
-It might seem that they have a good progression system to guide new players, something SimCity 2013 lacked completely (this is only speculation as we cannot really say how this will work without playing)
-Modding seems to be far, far better than SimCity 2013 and Cities XXL
-Map editor that seems fairly versatile

So quite a few points of improvements over some of the other games on the marked. You almost get the impression that the developers have taken a look at what they think was lacking in other available games and made a game that tries to tackle some of those problems. Also keep in mind that though Cities in Motion 2 certainly had a lot of possibilities when it came to building roads, it wasn't really much of a city builder, so it's somewhat fair to say that this is the developers' first attempt at this.

And now to the thread. This is the second thread I think that DrJamesWhite makes that is basically the same. It might be that the poster has really really good intentions at hearth, and is a nice and loveable person, but those intentions are not all that well conveyed. I'm sorry to say that a post loading with such hyperbole the post communicates, not a wish to help CO make a better game, but an angry scream of:

"How dare they? How dare their first effort be an improvement over most of the other flaws?! This isn't good enough for me! They should just fix it better! Why don't they fix it better! I deserve it being fixed better!"

As for you question: "Why the haters of Gigantic realistic cities?" I think you are on the wrong forum. It may be I'm wrong here, but I feel 100% certain that you will not find a single person on this forum that does not like the thought of a game enabling you to build cities as big as, or bigger than the biggest cities in the world to day.

However, just to end on a slightly less ranty note I would love to try to create even bigger cities than the game allows at release. And I agree with the sentiment that the modding possibilities with time will hopefully be robust enough to give options for bigger maps and more population, even if this will be due to modders utilizing shortcuts and ugly hacks. At least within reason such options are great to have for players that wish to venture forth to such hunting grounds.