• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

unmerged(6093)

Colonel
Oct 16, 2001
1.019
0
Visit site
Emperor of Europe said:
Because, if you knew what you were talking about, you would know that the technical descriptions of it are regarded as being quite valid. Especially since they mention the exact same equipment as the contemporary Praecepta Militaria by the Greek Byzantine Nikiphoros Phokas.

rgds/EoE

Really? I assume that you have read it in Greek then? Because the most common translation is considered unreliable particularly when it comes to technichal descriptions. But since I unlike you don´t read medieval greek I have to assume that you are right.
 

Emperor of Europe

Field Marshal
25 Badges
Sep 21, 2000
3.408
127
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Basileios I said:
First you said 10th century.

What now? Didn't the Byzantine Empire exist in the 10th century for you?


But that is not true.

Huh? Please tell, how do Achmetis Oneirocriticon and Praecepta Militaria differ in their description of equipment? This should be interesting.

/EoE
 

General di tuti

A kind soul
5 Badges
May 31, 2005
358
59
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
it is the closest thing we have connected to the roman empire, our ideologic idea of a united europe, the most succesfull political institute ever.
 

Abdul Goatherd

Premature anti-fascist
Aug 2, 2003
3.347
6.005
General di tuti said:
it is the closest thing we have connected to the roman empire, our ideologic idea of a united europe, the most succesfull political institute ever.


Oh really?

9-charlemagne.jpeg


:p
 

Basileios I

General
4 Badges
Mar 2, 2005
1.901
0
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • 500k Club
Emperor of Europe said:
What now? Didn't the Byzantine Empire exist in the 10th century for you?

Ehhh, this is a 10th century soldier:

lb01a02a.jpg


Here they are, illustrated:

15jk.jpg


The closest thing to your "average Byzantine soldier of the 10th century" it is the Pseltatos, and even they wore helmets in battle. These "cartoons" are much more accurate than the amateurish remake you posted. I can provide you with sources if you want.
 

Emperor of Europe

Field Marshal
25 Badges
Sep 21, 2000
3.408
127
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Basileios I said:
Ehhh, this is a 10th century soldier:

Yes, that is one type of soldier. The one I posted was another. If I post a picture of a BMW it doesn't mean all cars are BMW's. Do you understand that?


The closest thing to your "average Byzantine soldier of the 10th century" it is the Pseltatos, and even they wore helmets in battle. These "cartoons" are much more accurate than the amateurish remake you posted.

LOL! What you have posted here are artistic impressions of what a Skutatos and a Peltatos might have looked liked. Those two types of infantry had very specific roles. The Peltatos were light skirmishers, and the Skutatos were heavy spearmen. Nikephorus Phokas describes their role in detail, they were tasked with the protection of the archery against cavalry, and they were protected by heavy quilt armour. But hey, he was only a Greek Byzantine emperor, so what did he know?


I can provide you with sources if you want.

Thank you, I am aware of the Osprey series and their distinctly Victorian style.

You know, for someone who seems to be so interested in the Byzantine Empire I am amazed how you deliberately choose to avoid any information that clashes with your preconceived notion of them. The Byzantine Empire was a fascinating entity in its own right, and really deserves to be credited for its own sake.

Oh, and a last thing. Should your parents allow you to use the computer for a few hours more before you're tugged in for the night, I suggest you scroll back a few pages and start answering the questions I had about the distinctly Byzantine military equipment, organization, tactics and doctrine and what the heck is so supposedly Roman about it.

/EoE
 

Basileios I

General
4 Badges
Mar 2, 2005
1.901
0
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • 500k Club
Emperor of Europe said:
Yes, that is one type of soldier. The one I posted was another. If I post a picture of a BMW it doesn't mean all cars are BMW's. Do you understand that?

You claimed:

Emperor of Europe said:
That soldier is a typical Byzantine Greek infantry man of his day and age.

/EoE

I claimed that your pic was inaccurate.


Emperor of Europe said:
LOL! What you have posted here are artistic impressions of what a Skutatos and a Peltatos might have looked liked.

What do you think did you post? :wacko:

Emperor of Europe said:
Those two types of infantry had very specific roles. The Peltatos were light skirmishers, and the Skutatos were heavy spearmen. Nikephorus Phokas describes their role in detail, they were tasked with the protection of the archery against cavalry, and they were protected by heavy quilt armour. But hey, he was only a Greek Byzantine emperor, so what did he know?

So what? Did I ever contradict that?



Emperor of Europe said:
Thank you, I am aware of the Osprey series and their distinctly Victorian style.

Nice for you. I deem these books, written by Byzantinists like John Haldon and medieval arms experts like David Nicolle, based on authentic sources (military treatises, paintings and carvings), more trustworthy than your pictures of from some Spanish website or any of your ramblings.

Emperor of Europe said:
You know, for someone who seems to be so interested in the Byzantine Empire I am amazed how you deliberately choose to avoid any information that clashes with your preconceived notion of them.

The same could be said about you.


Emperor of Europe said:
I suggest you scroll back a few pages and start answering the questions I had about the distinctly Byzantine military equipment, organization, tactics and doctrine and what the heck is so supposedly Roman about it.

/EoE

What is Roman about the army of the 4th century? You never answered this question! In fact, all of your claims have been refuted. You even claimed that they suddenly weren't the Roman army anymore because they started using Greek terminology. The Byzantine army evolved directly from the Roman army. It can be seen as a continuation of the Roman army. Somehow this doesn't get in your head.

But instead of doing so you conviniently ignore parts of my/others posts and resort to personal insults instead.
 

Endre Fodstad

Colonel
23 Badges
Feb 6, 2000
1.142
3
Visit site
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
For what it is worth: Osprey's books are typically not shining examples of research in themselves, although this depends heavily on what the author specializes in. David Nicolle's books on Scandinavia, for example, are so chock-full of glaring errors, misconceptions of other people's research, and old (we're talking 1850's-old) and disproven theories that they are practically not worth the paper they're printed on.
 

Basileios I

General
4 Badges
Mar 2, 2005
1.901
0
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • 500k Club
I mailed Professor John Haldon of Princeton University, who wrote one of the Osprey books I own, and asked him about the whole issue (good when people put their e-mail adress in the internet :p). He said that there are disagreements on how some terms should be understood ... he said that the image posted by EoE isn't wrong, but the Osprey books aren't wrong either ...
 
Jan 30, 2002
4.199
1
Visit site
Basileios I said:
What is Roman about the army of the 4th century?
The fact that they, at least nominally, existed with the express purpose to defend the Emperor, his retinue, and the Empire, probably in that order. ;)

Of course, one ought to speak of a Western and Eastern Roman army.
 
Jan 30, 2002
4.199
1
Visit site
Basileios I said:
Isn't that the case in the medieval east Roman state too? :confused:
East Roman state, yes. Which is why one shouldn't call them the "Roman" army when they were, in fact, the East Roman army.
 

Markusw7

Slave to the Magyar
105 Badges
May 29, 2004
2.896
1.835
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Magicka
  • War of the Roses
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Dungeonland
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Tambourmajor said:
East Roman state, yes. Which is why one shouldn't call them the "Roman" army when they were, in fact, the East Roman army.

But is it not true to say if they are the east roman army then the other one is the west Roman army?
 

Basileios I

General
4 Badges
Mar 2, 2005
1.901
0
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • 500k Club
Tambourmajor said:
East Roman state, yes. Which is why one shouldn't call them the "Roman" army when they were, in fact, the East Roman army.

Because there was only one Roman state left after 476? So why is it incorrect to call the East Roman (or Byzantine) army Roman?

Anyway, this discussion is actually only semantics and silly hairsplitting.
 
Jan 30, 2002
4.199
1
Visit site
Markusw7 said:
But is it not true to say if they are the east roman army then the other one is the west Roman army?
Sure. It's pretty much irrelevant how you call them, but calling all of them just "Roman" tends to create confusion without a shorthand to specify which "Roman " we're talking about. :)
 
Jan 30, 2002
4.199
1
Visit site
Basileios I said:
Because there was only one Roman state left after 476? So why is it incorrect to call the East Roman (or Byzantine) army Roman?
Not incorrect, only misleading, because the Roman Empire tended to be centered around Rome until the 5th century.

Unless you want to desperately make a point for the sake of continuity, calling every single iteration of "Roman", be it the Tarquinian city state, the Republic, the Principate, the Late Empire, Justinian's state, Herakleios' Greek Empire, the Nicaean Empire, or even the HRE or the Ottomans, is bound to create misunderstandings and confusions unless it is clear from the outset that you are talking about the specific entity and period.

That's why people invented different terms for different entities - it saves time, because you don't have explain everything beforehand (provided of course everyone understands what you mean).
Anyway, this discussion is actually only semantics and silly hairsplitting.
No shit, Sherlock. ;)
 
Last edited:

Basileios I

General
4 Badges
Mar 2, 2005
1.901
0
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • 500k Club
Tambourmajor said:
Unless you want to desperately make a point for the sake of continuity, calling every single iteration of "Roman", be it the Tarquinian city state, the Republic, the Principate, the Late Empire, Justinian's state, Herakleios' Greek Empire, the Nicaean Empire, or even the HRE or the Ottomans, is bound to create misunderstandings and confusions unless it is clear from the outset that you are talking about the specific entity and period.

The HRE or the Ottomans don't have good claims to the title of Emperor. But the Byzantine Empire is a continuation of the Roman state, so why shouldn't we call it "Roman"? They themselves and most of their contemporaries called it "Roman Empire". :wacko:
 

Abdul Goatherd

Premature anti-fascist
Aug 2, 2003
3.347
6.005
Basileios I said:
The HRE or the Ottomans don't have good claims to the title of Emperor. But the Byzantine Empire is a continuation of the Roman state, so why shouldn't we call it "Roman"? They themselves and most of their contemporaries called it "Roman Empire". :wacko:

HRE had damn good claims - just as good, if not better.

At any rate, Byzzies were not consistent themselves. e.g. when discussing ecclesiastical matters, the Byzantines referred to themselves as "Greeks" and referred to the Latins as "Romans". Whacky ain't it? ;)

Also, just read an interesting article on the usage of the term "Romania". (R.L. Wolff, 1948, Speculum): Here goes a synopsis:

Seems like the term wasn't used as frequently as you'd think. Byz writers started using it from the 6th C. on, but it wasn't until after 1080s, during the reign of Alexius Comnenus, that we see it appear on imperial documents. (they called themselves "Roman Emperors" before that, but they didn't refer to their empire a "Romania" (land of Romans) but only as "orbis Romanum" (Roman world))

In the west, it appears hardly anywhere before that, except in an isolated Anglo-Saxon document from the 7th C. And the rare case of John the Deacon's chronicle where he adapts the 'romani' nomenclature of Byz usage. Otherwise when "Romans" and "Romania" was used in the west, it almost invariably referred to Roman Italy (ergo "Romagna" today), not the eastern bit.

More interestingly, it seems that in the Italian maritime states with extensive commercial connections with the east, there are no documents - not even the Latin translations of Byz treaties - which refer to the east as Romania, except from the late 12th C on. In Venice, the Romania & Roman Emperor reference is rather explicitly to the Latin Empire. In Pisa & Genoa, the reference is practically unknown until after 1204, when it becomes indeed a reference the exiled Greek state (which they take great relish in using as a way to diminish the Venetian-controlled Latin Empire).

But before that, (again with a couple of exceptions) it is almost never seen. Almost always "Imperator Constantinopolum", "Constantinopolitanum imperium" and "Terra Graecorum", "Graecorum imperator", or at best "Romanum Imperator Constantinopolum". In a couple of instances, even weird-ass "imperator romeum" (a direct sound transliteration of the Greek word, rather than translating it to Latin).

Outside of the maritime states, in all the correspondence & accounts with the east with the Pope, the Frankish Emperors, the Anglo-Saxons, etc. it is never referred to as "Roman" until c. 1200. Pope Nicholas I uses it once only to admonish the Byz Emperor to stop calling himself that, Leo IX used it once in "New Rome" form ("imperatori novae Romae") during an attempt to heal the Photian schism. All other western popes, kings, dukes & co., in all their massive correspondence, never used it at all. Nor in any other literature but a couple of direct translations of Greek texts.

The Norman & southern Lombard chronicles documents make use of the term occasionally after the 1080s (after it had become common use among Byzzies themselves), and then for Byz Italy alone (east is still Terra Graeca). But even so a rarity until the 1200s.

In the Crusader chronicles, "Romania" is naturally used liberally - but most frequently to refer to Asia Minor alone! i.e. explictly without Constantinople & Greece! This is a good indicator the Crusaders were probably taking their terminology from how the Arabs/Turks used it (Rum for the Anatolian territory they roamed over - which is what the term was narrowed down to in Arab usage during the 9th C., BTW), rather than how the Byzzies wanted to use it (Roman for the empire as a whole) Only in a couple of instances does it refer to the Byz empire (The weirdest case is a Crusader-era chronicle relating a 1190s address by Barbarossa, from "Imperatorum romanum Fridericum" to "Imperatorum romaniae Ysaac".)

The chansons de geste of the era, when it uses Roman to refer to Byz, uses it in those two common terms: the Byz lands in Italy alone or Asia Minor alone, but never Constantinople, Greece or the Byz Empire per se. That is always "Greek".

So apparently the only people who called them "Romans" were the Byzzies themselves and, for a short while, the Arabs. Whoop-dee-doo.

And, even so, the Byzzies only really took it up after 1080s. Sounds like the "Romani" nomenclature was a late revivalist thing to do - like the latter-day Astur-Leonese taking to calling themselves "Goths". So much for "continuity". ;)
 
Last edited: