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Basileios I

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madner said:
So, you want that to be true, rather then assume that the Arab army was superior then they opponents. So they were exhausted, but not battle hardend?

The Arabs won the Battle of Yarmuk mainly because the Arab (Ghassanids - Monophysites) allies of the Byzantines switched sides during the battle.

After that battle, the Romans evacuated to the coastal cities and retreated behind the Taurus mountain range. Practically giving up (heretic) Syria and later Egypt shows how exhausted the Empire was.

The Arab army was good, but not better than the Byzantine. After all, their advance was stopped and reversed.
 
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Basileios I said:
The Arabs won the Battle of Yarmuk mainly because the Arab (Ghassanids - Monophysites) allies of the Byzantines switched sides during the battle.

After that battle, the Romans evacuated to the coastal cities and retreated behind the Taurus mountain range. Practically giving up (heretic) Syria and later Egypt shows how exhausted the Empire was.

The Arab army was good, but not better than the Byzantine. After all, their advance was stopped and reversed.

That is a rather lame excuse, how many troops switched sides?

It is also notable that the primary Arab sources don't mention that.

They retreated becouse they had suffered a mini Canee.

You are aware of the campaign to retake Egypt, where the Byzantine troops lost, again to numericly inferior Arabs?

When?
 

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This thread should be renamed to "Why the BYZ bashing ?" :wacko:
 

unmerged(31881)

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Sekenr said:
This thread should be renamed to "Why the BYZ bashing ?" :wacko:
Now, now. i'm sure most people don't object to generic and consensual BYZ love.

It's just the "BYZ = best army, best navy, best air force" claims tend to draw out "not so fast there" responses.
:p
 

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Basileios I said:
The Franks (how many ships did they have?) never fought the central fleet of the Empire stationed at Constantinople. I highly doubt that. Rather a force of some naval theme.

Nope. It was the fleet from Constantinople they defeated at Comacchio.

You hail the seizure of Crete and Cyprus as demonstrations of Byz naval prowess, but Franks matched that in their seizure of Corsica and the Baleares. You hail the Byz raid on the pointless port of Damietta (the only retaliatory raid Byz did on Arab coasts), but Franks bested that by raiding the mouth of the beast, Tunis itself.

Funny how Frankish achievements at sea were not much less than the Byzzies. But nobody in their right mind would ever call the Franks a "naval power", much less "the best naval power". Franks didn't even have a navy! They assembled a fleet on the spot a few times, and yet did as much with that as the Byzzies did with all their fancy ships. ;)
 

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Tskb18 said:
Now, now. i'm sure most people don't object to generic and consensual BYZ love.

It's just the "BYZ = best army, best navy, best air force" claims tend to draw out "not so fast there" responses.
:p

QFT.

I am not finding this exercise enjoyable. Just teaching young Basileos a lesson in modest language. If you spit into the wind, it is bound to hit you back in the eye. :)
 

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Abdul Goatherd said:
Whom, for instance?

Byzantium's heyday was the 6th C., not the 10th. Thereafter, it was a second-tier power engaged in a largely defensive struggle and losing territory throughout.

With a couple of exceptions (i.e. Bulgaria), any territorial gains they made were temporary and at the expense of midget opponents, tiny fledgling states on their borders, not state-of-the-art armies of rival empires. Defeating a rebel Duke of Benevento or Hamdanid Emir isn't much to show for the "best army" in the Mediterranean.
Well okay, they didn't rack up the victories like the Mongols. And quite probably the Franks had a more impressive army in their heyday. But still, their army was not just any army. They maintained the Roman roads in Anatolia (parts of which were still used in the 19th century), they regularly fielded armies of 20,000 men and more. It's not like the Muslims fielded larger armies every other Tuesday either.

Abdul Goatherd said:
So what were the Arabs, the Bulgars, the Lombards, the Franks, the Aghlabids, the Fatimids, the Normans, the Turks, etc. doing venturing into Byzantine lands? Tourism?
Invading, that's what they did! All the time! That adds to the drama of the whole affair. :D And, yeah, they managed to drag them down quite far over the centuries. Like hounds!

Anyway, let me step back from the brink. I don't wish to continue blasting the Byzzies because I find such exercises unproductive and unfair. Byzantium was what it was. I don't confuse it with the Roman Empire, so my expectations aren't high - and they don't exceed them. I'd rather consider them on their own merits and credit them for that, rather than blast them for failure to live up to their astronomical billing.
Well okay, I can understand that you find it unproductive... so do I. But their "failure" is only astronomical if you see it from the perspective of surreal Byz-lover claims that they were the super duper empire of all times (which they weren't). They were one of the big medieval empires, and for long periods of time they were *the* biggest medieval empire around. Bigger empires existed before them, bigger ones rose and fall while they were around and bigger ones came after them. Other nations kicked a lot more ass than they ever did (Mongols, anyone?) and other states got by with less blinding, nose-cutting and mutilating of royal relatives than they did. But still, their capital was referred to as "The city" with a capital T throughout the middle ages, and all the rest about them is still pretty cool. They had stuff that the west didn't have for a long time... style, pomp, wealth... even when they sucked they were still cool. :cool: I mean, hey, 1453 - they rule just a handful of enclaves, their emperor has to beg for money in europe, the turks have long since overrun the european holdings of the empire... but they still hold that huge metropolis right at the Bosphorus, guarded by huge walls. The most grandiose midget state of the whole middle ages. :cool:
 

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To be honest my Byzantine zeal kind of waned after I learned more about this state, but still some anti-byz proponents aren't being entirely logical. Like references about Charlemagne built uber empire thus Byz sucks. Charle's empire was divided after his death, besides for him it was a serious concern whether the Byzantine emperor will approve of him being crowned emperor. I don't remember who wrote that Byzantine history is history of defeats because they lost lands, thus there's nothing glorious about Byzantium - also complete rubbish, like Charlemagne's empire didn't lose lands.

Regarding the argument that Byzantines never created anything of note, it seems so to us because we don't think like Byzantines. Their culture and intellectual thought was very much fixated on theology, and mystical theology at that which makes it ever harder for us to regard as something impressive. Overall Byzantium, their culture and way of thinking, especially in later stages, was very much alien to the rest of the world, almost like people from other dimesion. Thus the hostility and negative "reviews" by western historians. ;)
 

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Basileios I said:
The Arabs won the Battle of Yarmuk mainly because the Arab (Ghassanids - Monophysites) allies of the Byzantines switched sides during the battle.

Telling us how Byzantine's allies preferred infidels from the desert to their co-religionists, who were a known quantity, isn't a mark in Byzantiums favor.
 

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Faeelin said:
Telling us how Byzantine's allies preferred infidels from the desert to their co-religionists, who were a known quantity, isn't a mark in Byzantiums favor.

The Byzantines were very intolerant and opressive towards other Christian heresies (and Jews). Many people in Syria greeted the Arabs as liberators.
 

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Karl Martell said:
Well okay, they didn't rack up the victories like the Mongols. And quite probably the Franks had a more impressive army in their heyday. But still, their army was not just any army. They maintained the Roman roads in Anatolia (parts of which were still used in the 19th century), they regularly fielded armies of 20,000 men and more. It's not like the Muslims fielded larger armies every other Tuesday either.

The Byzantine Empire almost only expanded after the end of Iconoclasm. The Byzantine army from 899 (reforms of Nikephoros) onwards until 1025 was unmatched in the known world, that's a fact. They were disciplined, well-trained and well-equiped. I could give you examples of the different troop types, their equipment, army sizes and the organisation. It is all documented by both Byzantine and Arab sources. Arabs and Byzantines fielded larger armies than the Franks ever did, because Asia Minor and Syria were densely populated (compared to Western/Central Europe). This Byzantine army recovered Cilicia, Armenia, Mesopotamia and Syria for the empire. For the defence of Italy, the Byzantines had to rely mainly on the local forces of the Themes of Apulia and Longobardia.
 

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Abdul Goatherd said:
Nope. It was the fleet from Constantinople they defeated at Comacchio.

It was a fleet made up of ships collected from the various naval themes. :rolleyes:

And did you know that the Byzantines completely destroyed the Umayyad fleet and reacquired naval supremacy in the Eastern Med around 747 (battle off Cyprus)? Now if you call that naval incapability I don't know what's wrong with you.

The Abbasids never rebuilt a significant fleet.

Saying that the Byzantines weren't a capable naval power is just ignorance on your part. I have the feeling that you don't want them to be a capable naval power, for some reason.

It is true though that often the fleet was neglected by Emperors and commanders, which explains the rampant piracy and the Saracen conquest of Crete in the 9th century. But at the days of Basileios II, the Byzantine navy had its heyday, keeping the Fatimids, Rus and local Arab powers at bay.

After 1025 however both fleet and army withered away ... the Komnenos emperos had to rely mostly on the Italian cities.


The Byzantine navy wasn't the unbeatable war machine, but it wasn't incapable either. Abdul, you have to seriously refresh your knowledge about Byzantine history ... maybe read some books about them (about army and navy, for example) ... :)
 

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Basileios I said:
The Byzantine Empire almost only expanded after the end of Iconoclasm. The Byzantine army from 899 (reforms of Nikephoros) onwards until 1025 was unmatched in the known world, that's a fact.

After 899 - the "magical" birthdate of the hyper-army you gave - the Bulgars, Russians & Magyars nonetheless continued to whip Byz ass and force Constantinople to pay tribute & concessions. Byz continued to lose territory in Italy to petty dukes and Arab freebooters.

The 10th C. should have been primetime for Byz as all their rivals had collapsed or were in the process of collapse. And they had some success. Yet....in retrospect, they did so very little to capitalize on it.

Why did they fail to recover Sicily after the fall of the Aghlabids and widespread revolts in their favor? The unpopular Fatimids seemed to have had little difficulty doing so. Or taking back Rome after the collapse of the Frankish empire, as the Popes had asked? The unpopular Germans seemed to have little difficulty doing so. Strange that the Byz uber-army & uber-navy was unable to do what others could do.

So they defeated - with very much difficulty - the fledgling Hamdanid emirate. Whoop-de-doo. Helps that the Hamdanids were being attacked from below by others as well, but I'll give them a silver star for it nonetheless.

The defeat of Bulgaria was their one great achievement - albeit a victory made possible only because the Russians overran them first, but congratulations nonetheless.

Outside of that, meh. "Unmatched"? Not really. Their greatest gains were not done by their new super-army but, as before, by their readiness to pay the danegeld or hire others (e.g. Venice, Salerno, Russia) to do the heavy lifting.
 

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Abdul Goatherd said:
After 899 - the "magical" birthdate of the hyper-army you gave - the Bulgars, Russians & Magyars nonetheless continued to whip Byz ass and force Constantinople to pay tribute & concessions.

The Byzantines frequently bought off their enemies rather than fighting them. It was part of the Byzantine philosophy in foreign policies. I'll post more on that later once I get home.

Abdul Goatherd said:
The 10th C. should have been primetime for Byz as all their rivals had collapsed or were in the process of collapse. And they had some success. Yet....in retrospect, they did so very little to capitalize on it.

ByzantineEmpire717AD.png

1025AD.PNG


-----

Most of the greater Byzantine defeats (such as the Battle of Pliska, 811) happened by the way because of the incompetence of the generals in charge, not because the troops lacked in quality.


------

Just a question, why do you think most modern scholars and encyclopedias claim that the Byzantine army was formidable?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_army
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html

That's what I found on the first page, googling for "Byzantine Army". I could give you more reference, from books I have at home.
 
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Abdul Goatherd

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Basileios I said:
It was a fleet made up of ships collected from the various naval themes. :rolleyes:

The fleet was dispatched from Constantinople, wintered in Dalmatia, then headed to Comacchio, defeated, remnant retreated to Cephalonia. That's what my sources have it.

And did you know that the Byzantines completely destroyed the Umayyad fleet and reacquired naval supremacy in the Eastern Med around 747 (battle off Cyprus)? Now if you call that naval incapability I don't know what's wrong with you.

The Abbasids never rebuilt a significant fleet.

Byz had a handful of victories. But this was not a very significant one. It merely repelled an ill-thought invasion of Cyprus. Umayyads had their hands full in 747. They were already finished.

But yes, the Abbasids never bothered to rebuild a fleet. Spain and Africa did that. And it was Spaniards & Africans that traipsed around Byzantine territory with ease.

Saying that the Byzantines weren't a capable naval power is just ignorance on your part. I have the feeling that you don't want them to be a capable naval power, for some reason.

As opposed to you wanting them so badly that you just repeat the statement often enough and hope its true. Look at the facts sanely, my boy.

It is true though that often the fleet was neglected by Emperors and commanders, which explains the rampant piracy and the Saracen conquest of Crete in the 9th century. But at the days of Basileios II, the Byzantine navy had its heyday, keeping the Fatimids, Rus and local Arab powers at bay.

What naval achievements do you see in Basil II's reign?

- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why did it allow Messina to fall in 977 and allow Emir Ali ibn al-Kasim to proceed to sack Byzantine holdings up and down Calabria and Apulia with impunity? Where was the response?

- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why did he sign a treaty with Venice in 992 basically exempting Venetian goods from all customs duties at Abydos and giving Venetian merchants in Constantinople unheard-of commercial & political privileges just so the Venetians would ferry the imperial army?

- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why were Narentine pirates still dominating the Adriatic? Venice did the dirty work with its own expeditions in 997-1000 and annexed Istria & Dalmatia for itself. If Basil had such a mighty fleet, he could have done so himself and kept those territories, no?

- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why was he unable to prevent the Balearic Emir al-Ameri from seizing Sardinia in 1001?

- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, than why was it the Venetians again that had to provide the ships so the imperial army could take Bari back from the Saracens in 1002?

- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why couldn't he stop the qadi Safi from laying a comfortable siege to Bari in 1004? Why did he have to, once again, beg the Venetians to come to his aid and lift the siege (giving one of his daughters to Doge in "payment")?

- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why was it unable to do anything about the Saracen pirates operating out Reggio-in-Calabria? The Pisans that had to dislodge them themselves in 1005 and defeat the pirate fleet in 1006.

- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why was it the damn Pope who had to organize the naval assault on Corsica and Sardinia in 1015?

Just what the f*** was the mighty Byzantine navy doing?

If this was the Byzantine navy "at its heyday", I'd hate to see it on a bad day.
 

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Abdul Goatherd said:
The fleet was dispatched from Constantinople, wintered in Dalmatia, then headed to Comacchio, defeated, remnant retreated to Cephalonia. That's what my sources have it.

Does it say anything about the nature of the fleet?

Abdul Goatherd said:
Byz had a handful of victories. But this was not a very significant one. It merely repelled an ill-thought invasion of Cyprus. Umayyads had their hands full in 747. They were already finished.

Sinking the entire Umayyad fleet (roughly 1000 vessels) is not significant? No .... because the Byzantines did it and not the Arabs. :wacko:


Abdul Goatherd said:
- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why did it allow Messina to fall in 977 and allow Emir Ali ibn al-Kasim to proceed to sack Byzantine holdings up and down Calabria and Apulia with impunity? Where was the response?

Because he was busy fighting internal rivals (revolt of Bardas Skleros, for example), Arabs and Bulgars. He had more important things to do than care about some minor cities in Italy.

Abdul Goatherd said:
- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why did he sign a treaty with Venice in 992 basically exempting Venetian goods from all customs duties at Abydos and giving Venetian merchants in Constantinople unheard-of commercial & political privileges just so the Venetians would ferry the imperial army?

My sources claim it was just a commercial treaty with Venice, nothing more.

AFAIK it was Emperor Manuel who gave privileges to Italian merchants so that he could use their ships.

Abdul Goatherd said:
- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why were Narentine pirates still dominating the Adriatic? Venice did the dirty work with its own expeditions in 997-1000 and annexed Istria & Dalmatia for itself. If Basil had such a mighty fleet, he could have done so himself and kept those territories, no?

The Venetians occupied a few islands off the coast. Dalmatia proper was controled by the Croats, which paid tribute to the Empire.


Abdul Goatherd said:
- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why was he unable to prevent the Balearic Emir al-Ameri from seizing Sardinia in 1001?

Sardinia was de-facto independent anyway.

Abdul Goatherd said:
- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, than why was it the Venetians again that had to provide the ships so the imperial army could take Bari back from the Saracens in 1002?

Why should they do it themselves when the Venetians were willing to do it? Keep in mind the Byzantine philosophy concerning foreign policy. Paying off or bribing enemies as well as hiring others to do the dirty work was one of the main points in the Byzantine doctrine. That's why they got this (unfounded) reputation of being cowards and decrepit.



Abdul Goatherd said:
- If Basil had such a mighty fleet, why was it the damn Pope who had to organize the naval assault on Corsica and Sardinia in 1015?

Why on earth should Basil II attack Sardinia and Corsica? :confused:

He planned to attack Sicily, but never Sardinia or Corsica.
 

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Basileios I said:
Does it say anything about the nature of the fleet?

That is was the Constantinople fleet headed by a dux Paulus.

Sinking the entire Umayyad fleet (roughly 1000 vessels) is not significant? No .... because the Byzantines did it and not the Arabs. :wacko:

Because it was a purely defensive operation. It didn't change anything. (except that perhaps the Umayyads could have used that fleet to flee from the Abbasids. ;))

And the heydey of Arab (African/Spanish) sea projection was after that.

Because he was busy fighting internal rivals (revolt of Bardas Skleros, for example), Arabs and Bulgars. He had more important things to do than care about some minor cities in Italy, etc., etc.
,

You're missing the point here. You asserted the navy under Basil II was a mighty, mighty thing, its heyday, etc. What did it do? I've gone through a list of major naval events that happened during his reign. Where was the Byzantine navy? It wasn't defending Byzantine dominions, or ferrying its troops, did not attack pirates or protect shipping, or retaliate against raids, did not take the fight anywhere, in fact it was nowhere to be seen. Instead, we see an Emperor begging & paying huge concessions to foreigners to do all the naval work.

If he had a mighty, mighty navy, it did nothing whatsoever.

My sources claim it was just a commercial treaty with Venice, nothing more.

Your sources are wrong. The 992 treaty was a military agreement in return for commercial privileges. The 1002 & 1004 interventions (& others explicitly invoked that treaty.

That's only one of many treaties. Such treaties were made before and would be made again, each conceding more and more.

The Venetians occupied a few islands off the coast. Dalmatia proper was controled by the Croats, which paid tribute to the Empire.

The parts captured by the Venetians were the major citadels on the Dalmatian coast, the parts that had been formerly suzerain to Byzantium. Croatians took the Slavic-populated rump, lost long ago, and paid little beyond lip service. Basil conceded the title of Dux Dalmatia to Venice.

Sardinia was de-facto independent anyway.

Indeed. Because the Byzantine navy couldn't project itself there.

Why should they do it themselves when the Venetians were willing to do it? Keep in mind the Byzantine philosophy concerning foreign policy. Paying off or bribing enemies as well as hiring others to do the dirty work was one of the main points in the Byzantine doctrine. That's why they got this (unfounded) reputation of being cowards and decrepit.

The Venetians weren't "willing" to do it, they were "paid" to do it. It cost the Byzantines territory & treasure. Keep that in mind.

You may call appeasement and concessions a "philosophy". Others call it a sign of weakness. If they had an uber-army and uber-navy, they could have deployed it rather than drain their treasury and surrender their lands? ;)

It does sound decrepit. It sounds like the philosophy of that famous fictional Chinese character, Ah Q, who mentally tricked himself into believing that every beating he took was a glorious victory (one of the best satires about decrepit empires there is.)

Why on earth should Basil II attack Sardinia and Corsica? :confused:

He planned to attack Sicily, but never Sardinia or Corsica.

Because (a) they were Byzantine dominions, (b) they were perches from which the Spaniards dominated the Mediterranean sea and attacked other Byz positions. The Spaniards had no problem projecting themselves to Crete & Greece.

If Byz had a competent navy, retaking the islands would have been paramount to taking back control of the sea. But, as you point out, they didn't even bother to try.

(P.S. - the Byzantine navy had better days before Basil. At least it had tried (but failed) to knock out the Fraxinet perch earlier in the 10th C., and that is even further than Corsica.)

Your logic is working akin to this: I am a mighty, mighty composer, the greatest since Mozart. Unfortunately, nobody ever hears my music because I don't write it. Indeed, I prefer to pay others to write. But I am a mighty, mighty composer. And if I repeat it often enough, others will realize that. Have you seen my fancy baton? It was once owned by Mendelssohn. I have a coat of tails in my closet too. Thus it must be true that I am a mighty, mighty composer.
 
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Basileios I

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Abdul Goatherd said:
That is was fleet headed by a dux Paulus. the Constantinople

What is the source anyway? Not that I don't believe it, I'm just asking out of personal interest.


Because it was a purely defensive operation. It didn't change anything. (except that perhaps the Umayyads could have used that fleet to flee from the Abbasids. ;))

What is the difference? Is a navy only good if you use it offensively?

The Byzantines needed a powerful navy to beat back the Arabs.


You're missing the point here. You asserted the navy under Basil II was a mighty, mighty thing, its heyday, etc. What did it do? I've gone through a list of major naval events that happened during his reign. Where was the Byzantine navy? It wasn't defending Byzantine dominions, or ferrying its troops, did not attack pirates or protect shipping, or retaliate against raids, did not take the fight anywhere, in fact it was nowhere to be seen. Instead, we see an Emperor begging & paying huge concessions to foreigners to do all the naval work.

Why do you think most encyclopedias and historians claim that the Byzantine navy at that time was in its heydays?


The parts captured by the Venetians were the major citadels on the Dalmatian coast, the parts that had been formerly suzerain to Byzantium. Croatians took the Slavic-populated rump, lost long ago, and paid little beyond lip service. Basil conceded the title of Dux Dalmatia to Venice.

Dux Dalmatiae. ;)

Serbs and Croats paid tribute and had to offer troops.

It does sound decrepit. It sounds like the philosophy of that famous fictional Chinese character, Ah Q, who mentally tricked himself into believing that every beating he took was a glorious victory.

After all their policy was very succesful. Combined with a powerful army it was one of the reasons for the empire's long survival.


(P.S. - the Byzantine navy had better days before Basil. At least it had tried (but failed) to knock out the Fraxinet perch earlier in the 10th C., and that is even further than Corsica.)

From what I've read the navy had its heyday under Basil II. Nothing about what they did though.