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unmerged(40707)

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Norrefeldt said:
Conclusions:
  1. Resulting map discoveries work fine.
  2. Denmark colonise too much. Settings are now expansion 1 and tradingpost 95. Could raise tradingpost to 100. That will still lead to some colonies eventually, but fewer. If other historically big colonisers colonise better, it would be less room for Denmark. Another idea is to set the AI to start a few decades later than 1600.
  3. Trade in non-European COTs is close to non-existant! This appears to be the same for most states. Is there anything we can do or is the engine broken? Should we test to raise "traders" above 100?
  4. Another AI should hit in late game, to allow exploration of more peripheral areas.
Fine for proposed expansion. Few decades? as in 1625 for example?
About traders, it appears too much CoTs close not by event and surprisingly in Europe like Anglia, Holland... It was not the same in version before AI changes. Values in new AI files are certainly bound to this but I have no idea of the impact of these values on balance between investments (colonies, manufactories, fortifications, traders...) and AI preferences.
 

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YodaMaster said:
Fine for proposed expansion. Few decades? as in 1625 for example?
About traders, it appears too much CoTs close not by event and surprisingly in Europe like Anglia, Holland... It was not the same in version before AI changes. Values in new AI files are certainly bound to this but I have no idea of the impact of these values on balance between investments (colonies, manufactories, fortifications, traders...) and AI preferences.
Let it start 1616, when Denmark have the event Danish East Indian Company.
I'm not surprised that we have those COT closures, as trading values are much lower now. They are adapted to early game and not late game, when competition and possible trade income benefit intense trading. We discussed back then to add AI files for all minors raising their trade value then. I cannot see a good way to do this but add an event for each (European) nation. Seems it's time to do so.
 

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Suggested changes to Danish AI file DAN_1600:
Change start date to 1610, (also start date of explorer Jens Munk)
Change name of file accordingly.
Set tradingpost to 100.
Set monopoly to -50.

Changes to English AI files:
1529: set traders to 70.
1570: set traders to 70.
1590: set traders to 70.
1635: set traders to 100.
1740: set traders to 100.

Changes to French AI files:
1580: set traders to 70.
1633: set traders to 100.
1655: set traders to 100.
1700: set traders to 100.
1750: set traders to 100.
 

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Bordic said:
And still no French in Biloxi-Mobile, always Dutch colonists there! :confused:
I was wrong here! In my last tests France brilliantly colonizes Louisiana but still failing to connect with Grand Lacs. :(

A good colonization of Mid West is necessary for the event in which France cedes all her NAmerican (excluding Canada) provinces to USA.

A little report:

France still colonizes too much in Canada while England doesn't...

I still see how Georgia area should be definitly added to ENG AI files otherwise no ENG in Savannah and Alabama.

Even adding Hudson bay and Labrador to ENG files, they still don't colonize well there.

Adding Australian areas to 1740 Ai file, I see a certain ENG colonization of Australian West coast, but since Cook's voyages are in 1770s, imo a new AI file (1770-1780s) should be added to explorate-colonize this part of the world.
 

unmerged(40707)

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Norrefeldt said:
The low trade values could actually be a bugfix, and all the rest too if we want to speed up the process. the changes are so minor and only fine tuning, so it matters little.
Bugfix then. ;)
 

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Norrefeldt said:
IF the AI should have the same focus I guess we should have that. For some AI files it might be that it's more important that the few colonies are places in area B than in area A that were supposed to be colonised earlier.
What does it mean area B and area A? Sorry I am no expert about it but I believe we could add these areas to the ENG AI files:

Code:
area = { Georgia Newfoundland "Hudson Bay" Labrador }
at least Georgia in the area of ENG_1635.ai and ENG_1740.ai
and probably also Newfoundland "Hudson Bay" Labrador.

In my conducted tests Savannah and Alabama were being good colonized, while no good colonization was in Northern Canada. DOn't know why... :confused:

And in ENG_1740.ai or better in a new AI file after 1770s (Cook's explorations) I would suggest to add

Code:
region = { BarrierReefSea BarrierreefSea OceaniaSea SWPacificSea SEPacificSea Australia }
and
Code:
area = { "Grand Lacs" Papua Botany Kanguru Maori Papua Tasmania }
amongst the other ones already in 1740.ai.

In this way we can see England colonize at least Australia.


About British penetration in India shouldn't add these tags to

Code:
combat = { BGL MAH MOG VIJ MYS }
or any other Indian country tag to the ENG AI 1740 file, as to let the British form their colonial empire?

Here is a map
and here another "progressive" one
 
Last edited:

Norrefeldt

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YodaMaster said:
But, in my tests, I never see Portuguese in Malacca. Reason is sometimes Malacca (the state) doesn't exist anymore but often, because Portuguese don't even know indonesia around 1550 (only Lanka as the "far east").
My tests were done before the liftetime of POR explorers were cut down, and then it worked. I think we can leave new tests to the new map.
Bordic said:
What does it mean area B and area A? Sorry I am no expert about it but I believe we could add these areas to the ENG AI files:

Code:
area = { Georgia Newfoundland "Hudson Bay" Labrador }
at least Georgia in the area of ENG_1635.ai and ENG_1740.ai
and probably also Newfoundland "Hudson Bay" Labrador.

In my conducted tests Savannah and Alabama were being good colonized, while no good colonization was in Northern Canada. DOn't know why... :confused:

And in ENG_1740.ai or better in a new AI file after 1770s (Cook's explorations) I would suggest to add

Code:
region = { BarrierReefSea BarrierreefSea OceaniaSea SWPacificSea SEPacificSea Australia }
and
Code:
area = { "Grand Lacs" Papua Botany Kanguru Maori Papua Tasmania }
amongst the other ones already in 1740.ai.

In this way we can see England colonize at least Australia.


About British penetration in India shouldn't add these tags to

Code:
combat = { BGL MAH MOG VIJ MYS }
or any other Indian country tag to the ENG AI 1740 file, as to let the British form their colonial empire?

Here is a map
and here another "progressive" one
I agree that it sounds like good things to add. Even better would be to see the effects of adding these entries in a test.
 

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Spanish pace of Colonization

I've never played Spain to any great extent, but now I have a lot of sympathy for Spanish players who have to scrape for every last ducat to pay for colonization since I played my first playtest of Unified Iberia. So I wondering if some settlement events are in order for the major Spanish colonies. But there is one psychological issue that plays into this as most gamers want to immediately start colonizing everything all at once. But the actual pace of colonization was quite slow for the South American mainland. So I poked around the web to see how fast they colonized places in the first century after Columbus and came up with the following, which was a bit more complicated than I anticipated since Paradox's names don't correspond well with current borders. Mosquitos is modern Costa Rica, Costa Rica is modern Nicaragua and the game Nicaragua wasn't settled by the Spanish for all intents and purposes.

Cuba and Santo Domingo - half handled by Fodoron's events
Trinidad unsuccessful colony
Puerto Rico - 1508
Jamaica - 1534
------------------------------------
Honduras - Camayagua, Honduras 8 Dec 1537
Mosquitos - Cartago, Costa Rica 1563
Guatemala - 25 Jul 1524
Isthmus - 1512
Campeche - 1540
Yucatan - 1542
-------------------------------
Cupica - 1654?, but this needs to be further researched although it seems to have been plagued with hostile Indians and not much settled.
Bogota - 6 Aug 1538
Cartagena - 1533
Maracaibo - 29 Jul 1525
Tocuvo - 1527
Yaraguay - 1567
Caribe - 1522
Jujuy - 19 Apr 1593
Corrientes - 25 Jul 1573
Neembuck - Asunción, Paraguay 15 Aug 1537 (not a good fit geographically, but close)
Rosario - 1573
Parana - not settled until much later
Uruguay - 1624
Aires - 2 Feb 1536, but abandoned and refounded in 1580
Pampas del Norte - 6 Jul 1573
Pampas de Sud - 1561
Valparaiso- 12 Feb 1541
Talca - arguably never completely settled due to the fierce Mapuche Indians
Aisen, Magallanes, Tierra del Fuego, Santa Cruz and Chubut, San Matias weren't settled until after the end of the game. Copetonas is a borderline case, but wasn't settled, using a generous definition, until the very late 1700s.
-----------------------------
Seminole - 28 Aug 1565
--------------------
Luzon, Samar and Mindoro from 1570

So roughly 31 or 32 provinces settled before 1600. In Fodoron's experiment he managed 38 provinces. So roughly 400 colonists in a century using 12.5 colonists for AI settlement and a cost over 22,000 ducats. And let's not ignore the 250+ for city improvements for each province which is another 10,000 ducats or so.
Fodoron's already provided settlement events for Cuba, Luzon and Santo Domingo that save 30 colonists and 2100 ducats or so. These are quite doable for a peaceful Spain, but that ignores how often Charles and Felipe were at war with someone or another. Which was most of the century.

While I respect the amount of effort that Fodoron put into his recapituliones events I'd prefer a series of province based events that would give 500 colonists and a bailiff to each province based on the historical dates. If a player wants to get there early he can pay full price. To cater to my alt Iberia I'd prefer to have a simple trigger of religion = catholic and non-pagan rather than specifically Spain. I realize that this could cater to France or Portugal poaching, but since the provinces are all within the Spanish ToT boundary it would be an easy matter to retake them.
Something like this, using Fodoron's Cuban events as a model:
Code:
#(1536-1820) Settlement of Honduras
event = {
	id = 338xxx
	trigger = {
		NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 36 data = pagan } } #not a TP
		religion = catholic
	}
	random = no
	province = 36 #Honduras
	name = "Settlement of Honduras"
	desc = "The first colonists arrive in Honduras."

	date = { day = 8 month = december year = 1537 }
	offset = 10
	deathdate = { year = 1820 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Excellent"
		command = { type = population which = 36 value = 500 }
		command = { type = gainbuilding which = 36 value = bailiff } #Honduras
		command = { type = colonists value = 2 }
	}
}
I'm not sure if any colonists are really needed, but I left them in as a legacy from Fodoron's originals.
 

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sturmvogel said:
I've never played Spain to any great extent, but now I have a lot of sympathy for Spanish players who have to scrape for every last ducat to pay for colonization since I played my first playtest of Unified Iberia.

Short of money???????/, check every game played in EU2 and Spain money in regards to the money graph is always double the next best nation.

I never have had trouble with the money as Spain, maybe you want every trading post become a city or something else,
there is plenty of money for me as Spain though.

I was actually looking at curb some of this Excess funds.
 

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Toio said:
Short of money???????/, check every game played in EU2 and Spain money in regards to the money graph is always double the next best nation.

I never have had trouble with the money as Spain, maybe you want every trading post become a city or something else,
there is plenty of money for me as Spain though.

I was actually looking at curb some of this Excess funds.

Well, every province that I listed, with the possible exception of the latest settlement dates, is a full city by 1600. I don't know if you're doing the same or leaving many of them as TPs, but 30,000 odd ducats is pretty hard to manage if you're colonizing all them with all three buildings and fighting wars for 60+ years in the century. The Spanish really are able to have their cake and eat it too. They colonized most of a continent and fight major European powers for decades at a time. Fodoron couldn't do both in his test, but I don't like his solution of adding colonists and money (only in the early game). If you want to compile a report like his where you tried to both settle and fight wars on a historical basis I'd certainly like to read it. :D

But a lot of this goes back to the game's fundamental flaws where colonization is too expensive and warfare is too cheap. I'm really hoping that the new map will perpetuate the same manpower numbers for a given area, regardless of how many extra provinces are added. Or even reduce them as nobody could afford to keep 180,000 men under arms indefinitely. Not even Spain. But that's trivially easy for a major power with a decent number of provinces.
 

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sturmvogel said:
Well, every province that I listed, with the possible exception of the latest settlement dates, is a full city by 1600. I don't know if you're doing the same or leaving many of them as TPs, but 30,000 odd ducats is pretty hard to manage if you're colonizing all them with all three buildings and fighting wars for 60+ years in the century. The Spanish really are able to have their cake and eat it too. They colonized most of a continent and fight major European powers for decades at a time. Fodoron couldn't do both in his test, but I don't like his solution of adding colonists and money (only in the early game). If you want to compile a report like his where you tried to both settle and fight wars on a historical basis I'd certainly like to read it. :D

But a lot of this goes back to the game's fundamental flaws where colonization is too expensive and warfare is too cheap. I'm really hoping that the new map will perpetuate the same manpower numbers for a given area, regardless of how many extra provinces are added. Or even reduce them as nobody could afford to keep 180,000 men under arms indefinitely. Not even Spain. But that's trivially easy for a major power with a decent number of provinces.

well the programmers saw a flaw in the older versions, in that Spain had all TP's turn to colonies because 700 people made a city, why did paradox change this to 1000 people per city , most probably , not to have every TP become a city. or modders complaints???

As i said , i find I have plenty of money as Spain, actually, Spain and Frnace have so much money I am always left with 5 to 9 k in the bank.


the problems will cause , if you give Spain more money,
- netherlands never form because SPA keep the troop number in the united provinces very high ,

- buying diploannexations due to gifts

pity we cannot make each boat load of colonists 200 instead of 100.

I fear, if u give SPA MORE money , the balance we have now will be ruined in regards with SPA and the other neighboring nations.

I think SPA need less money or curb their money with bankrupcy .
the bankrupty should be tripled as to what it stands now,

On the game, U and most AGCEEP people must realise , its first a war game then a trade ,diplomacy game, and not the other way around.
The engines tendency is for war.
 

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Toio said:
well the programmers saw a flaw in the older versions, in that Spain had all TP's turn to colonies because 700 people made a city, why did paradox change this to 1000 people per city , most probably , not to have every TP become a city. or modders complaints???

As i said , i find I have plenty of money as Spain, actually, Spain and Frnace have so much money I am always left with 5 to 9 k in the bank.


the problems will cause , if you give Spain more money,
- netherlands never form because SPA keep the troop number in the united provinces very high ,

- buying diploannexations due to gifts

pity we cannot make each boat load of colonists 200 instead of 100.

I fear, if u give SPA MORE money , the balance we have now will be ruined in regards with SPA and the other neighboring nations.

I think SPA need less money or curb their money with bankrupcy .
the bankrupty should be tripled as to what it stands now,

On the game, U and most AGCEEP people must realise , its first a war game then a trade ,diplomacy game, and not the other way around.
The engines tendency is for war.

I agree with you that Spain needs to be hampered more with her historic bankruptcies. There was a little discussion on that exact subject back in the Iberian thread around July. Unfortunately I haven't quite figured out how to tie them to the long wars that Spain fought since we can't use war exhaustion as a trigger. (Although I suppose we could use an event chain that checks for war every year and then triggers the bankruptcy after a certain number of years). I really don't want to penalize peaceful players. We might be able to tie some of them into major peace treaties although the timing is off for some since the bankruptcies encouraged the Spanish to make peace.
I'd be very interested in seeing exactly how much you colonize and what your inflation rate is as Spain. I haven't played Spain hardly at all and have no basis of comparison. Could you send me either a savegame file or just the Spanish part of one to me at sturmvogel_66@hotmail.com?
 

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[Skipping over all the hogwash]


And you want colonies everywhere? Before you can snatch them up yourselves? Ahistorical colonization?!?! Sweden in Africa?!?!?! Africa in Sweden?!?!? YOU ARE INSANE, SIR!!! Ok... joking!!


Seriously, the AI's inability to colonize makes the game much more fun for me, at least.
 

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Spanish colonization events

Having just inherited Spain in my alt-Iberia playtest as of January 1516 I think it might be worthwhile to list exactly what the AI was able to accomplish on its own.
All the islands in the Caribbean had been discovered although two sea zones in the Gulf of Mexico and the Bahamas hadn't been discovered. There was one complete city in Tortuga, with another started in St. Martin. There were level 2-4 TPs planted in Jamaica, Cartagena, Moron, Trinidad and Puerto Rico. On the mainland only Cupica, Isthumus, Yatumal, Maracaibo, Tocuvo, Yaraguay and Caribe had been discovered. And all of the conquistadors were in Tortuga for some reason.

Fodoron built the events below to help the Spanish match their historical pace of colonization , but the problem is that they will fire when the provinces are merely TPs and nobody will be added to the province. They also have historical death dates, but I'd suggest that we extend them for a century or so to allow the AI to benefit from them, however belatedly.
I'd also suggest changing the triggers so they won't fire until each province has a lvl 1 colony present. That way the full benefit is received, even if the event is delayed.

Code:
#(1501-1508) Able administrator
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 285078
	trigger = {
[COLOR=Red]		OR = {
			owned = { province = 142 data = -1 } #Tortuga
			owned = { province = 143 data = -1 } #Barahona
		}[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Yellow]		owned = { province = 142 data = -1 } #Tortuga
		NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 142 data = pagan } } #not a TP
		owned = { province = 143 data = -1 } #Barahona
		NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 143 data = pagan } } #not a TP[/COLOR]
	}
	random = no
	country = SPA
	name = "EVENTNAME285078" #Fray Nicolas de Ovando
	desc = "EVENTHIST285078"
	#-#

	date = { day = 13 month = march year = 1501 }
	offset = 1000
	deathdate = { day = 18 month = october year = 1[COLOR=Yellow]620[/COLOR] }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285078A" #Our colonies finally thrive
		command = { type = population which = 142 value = 500 } #Tortuga
		command = { type = population which = 143 value = 500 } #Barahona
		command = { type = treasury value = 100 }
		command = { type = INF which = 142 value = 1000 } #Tortuga
		command = { type = INF which = 143 value = 1000 } #Barahona
		command = { type = warships which = 142 value = 1 } #Tortuga
		command = { type = warships which = 143 value = 1 } #Barahona
		command = { type = gainbuilding which = 142 value = bailiff } #Tortuga
		command = { type = gainbuilding which = 143 value = bailiff } #Barahona
		command = { type = colonists value = 6 }
	}
}
#(1510-1524) The pearl of the Caribbe
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 285079
	trigger = {
[COLOR=Red]		OR = {
			owned = { province = 137 data = -1 } #Havana
			owned = { province = 138 data = -1 } #Moron
			owned = { province = 139 data = -1 } #Guantanamo
		}[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Yellow]		owned = { province = 137 data = -1 } #Havana
		NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 137 data = pagan } } #not a TP
		owned = { province = 138 data = -1 } #Moron
		NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 138 data = pagan } } #not a TP
		owned = { province = 139 data = -1 } #Guantanamo
		NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 139 data = pagan } } #not a TP[/COLOR]
	}
	random = no
	country = SPA
	name = "EVENTNAME285079" #Diego Velazquez de Cuellar
	desc = "EVENTHIST285079"
	#-#

	date = { day = 15 month = july year = 1510 }
	offset = 1000
	deathdate = { day = 22 month = november year = 1[COLOR=Yellow]620[/COLOR] }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285079A" #Our colonies thrive
		command = { type = population which = 137 value = 500 } #Havana
		command = { type = population which = 138 value = 500 } #Moron
		command = { type = population which = 139 value = 500 } #Guantanamo
		command = { type = treasury value = 100 }
		command = { type = INF which = 137 value = 1000 } #Havana
		command = { type = INF which = 138 value = 1000 } #Moron
		command = { type = INF which = 139 value = 1000 } #Guantanamo
		command = { type = warships which = 137 value = 1 } #Havana
		command = { type = warships which = 138 value = 1 } #Moron
		command = { type = warships which = 139 value = 1 } #Guantanamo
		command = { type = gainbuilding which = 137 value = bailiff } #Havana
		command = { type = gainbuilding which = 138 value = bailiff } #Moron
		command = { type = gainbuilding which = 139 value = bailiff } #Guantanamo
		command = { type = colonists value = 6 }
	}
}
#(1513-1526) A difficult colonist life
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 285080
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 39 data = -1 } #Isthmus
[COLOR=Yellow]		NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 144 data = pagan } } #not a TP[/COLOR]
	}
	random = no
	country = SPA
	name = "EVENTNAME285080" #Pedro Arias de Avila
	desc = "EVENTHIST285080"
	#-#

	date = { day = 8 month = april year = 1513 }
	offset = 2000
	deathdate = { day = 20 month = december year = 1[COLOR=Yellow]620[/COLOR] }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285080A" #This is no place for Christians
		command = { type = population which = 39 value = -100 } #Isthmus
		command = { type = treasury value = -40 }
		command = { type = warships which = 39 value = 1 } #Isthmus
		command = { type = colonists value = -1 }
	}
}
 

sturmvogel

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Oct 13, 2005
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In another playtest the Spanish had full cities in Trinidad, Antigua, and Barahona. Guadalupe was level 8 colony and Tortuga was a level 1 colony. St. Martin and Puerto Rico were TPs. All islands were known except St. Thomas. All sea zones had been explored except the Leeward Islands and the two northern zones in the Gulf of Mexico.

Let's compare that to history. By this date all of Cuba, Panama, Puerto Rico and the eastern half of Santo Domingo should be full cities with TPs and/or low-level cities in Trinidad and possibly a couple of the other sugar islands. So a minimum of 70 colonists less the 25 provided by Fodoron's colonization events equals 45 or about 5000 ducats if every colonist is successful. More realistically that's 59 colonists and about 6500 ducats.
By 1530 Tehuacan, Guatemala, Caribe, Tocuvo and Maracaibo are all full cities as well.
The Caribbean goldmine events total a useful 425 ducats, but that's just a drop in the bucket considering that census income is probably about 200 per year during this period.
Fodoron's capitulaciones provide a very useful 160 ducats and 6 colonists per year from 1495 even though the AI wastes most of them.