Why the A.I. being in such a crappy state isn't seen as a serious issue for this game?

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Avil

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Why should your heirs or anyone getting land be the super smart leader that you control?
No one cares if random AI dynasties die out, because they immediately create another, randomly generated dynasty in their place. Their stupidity may give you a facepalm or a smirk. You can't do the same with your own children. There is no button "create random heir to the throne". That's why you can't afford landing your heir, if you CARE about your heir.
 

WomboCombo

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But my point is your heir, or any landed person is a totally different person. You have and should not have any control on what they do or don't do. You have to fix up their messes. Otherwise what you want is a game where you control the decisions for many people and not just the one you are playing.

History is filled with fathers that built up small dynasties and then gave it out to his sons. Some of the sons went on and made very bad choices and lost their lands. Others (the next heir you control) did better and had to somehow fix what his brother totally screwed up.

My question back to you is why shouldn't it be this way? Why should you have heris that only make the smartest and best choices?
I actually agree with this. The AI doesn't have an agenda like the player does. Unless they're Ambitious, usually.
 

Avil

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But my point is your heir, or any landed person is a totally different person. You have and should not have any control on what they do or don't do. You have to fix up their messes. Otherwise what you want is a game where you control the decisions for many people and not just the one you are playing.

History is filled with fathers that built up small dynasties and then gave it out to his sons. Some of the sons went on and made very bad choices and lost their lands. Others (the next heir you control) did better and had to somehow fix what his brother totally screwed up.

My question back to you is why shouldn't it be this way? Why should you have heris that only make the smartest and best choices?
Except "smartest" sometimes means "have no brain to actually do anything" :)
It's a bad question again. It's not hard to explain, why they shouldn't do that, answer gonna be the same. Question there is "should AI not be able to do that?". That's where I CAN say that no, they should be able to do "their own thing", it's their will now, not yours. Player always have an option to not land their children if they care, that's why player doesn't.

upd:
Try asking your own parents, should you cut your hand off for no reason or not :/
 

Admiral Fischer

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But my point is your heir, or any landed person is a totally different person. You have and should not have any control on what they do or don't do. You have to fix up their messes. Otherwise what you want is a game where you control the decisions for many people and not just the one you are playing.

History is filled with fathers that built up small dynasties and then gave it out to his sons. Some of the sons went on and made very bad choices and lost their lands. Others (the next heir you control) did better and had to somehow fix what his brother totally screwed up.

My question back to you is why shouldn't it be this way? Why should you have heris that only make the smartest and best choices?

They don't make choice, they don't make decision, they make random action with no good rationale on their own.

Now, if:

Because intra-family political machinations weren't a reality... oh wait a minute, there's been plenty of heirs who sought to kill their liege in order to gain power more quickly. Or fight with their siblings for more power themselves at the cost of the realm as a whole. Or fathers who killed their sons to secure their own power...

... if the cases were like these then I wouldn't have any problem, but as right now we have primary heirs joining in gavelkind faction, a ruler in danger of dynastic extinction marrying a 46 years old low-born, making the only heir a bishop, declaring for a no-name claimant's claim on some lands 700 km away from his demesne, and on. No need to be 'the smartest and best choices' as you said, and it begs a question what makes it so controversial to point out the AI's suicidal incompetency.
 

Admiral Fischer

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You miss the point. You don't and should have no control over their choices good or bad. That would be playing two people. Just like in real life we hope our kids make the right choice but we can't guarantee it and have to deal with the choices they do make. In one game I had a son (not direct heir) that somehow became the King of France and had a larger empire than I did.

I never talked about control. The topic is about AI's (or lack of thereof) agenda.
 

GundamMerc

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Yea but you want the OUTCOMES to be what you want and not what might happen. That is control no matter what you call it. It seems only the bad outcomes is why you think the AI is bad. You ignore the good choices and outcomes.
You put it much more succinctly than I could.
 

Avil

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My parents are long dead but I can easily turn this around and say look at children that become mass murderers vs ones that become a senator or president. Of course the parent wants the best but the child makes the decision or lack of a decision to get them where they are.
I didn't understand your turn around. Question was "what they should (not) do" from perspective of a parent (the player), not what they "do", or should be "able" to do. Outcome we all know (get captured while leading a raiding party with 6 martial and sacrificed to the gods).
 

Karlington

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Yea but you want the OUTCOMES to be what you want and not what might happen. That is control no matter what you call it. It seems only the bad outcomes is why you think the AI is bad. You ignore the good choices and outcomes.

Nobody's saying that players should be able to control any other characters, nor their outcomes. People are just saying that the AI makes too many poor choices and not enough good choices.

This does NOT mean that he AI shouldn't make poor choices! It means that the ratio is too skewed as it is right now.

I'm inclined to agree with this. The AI has a tendency to do really weird things, much more so than you'd expect (and more than you see in history).
 

vandevere

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Because intra-family political machinations weren't a reality... oh wait a minute, there's been plenty of heirs who sought to kill their liege in order to gain power more quickly. Or fight with their siblings for more power themselves at the cost of the realm as a whole. Or fathers who killed their sons to secure their own power...

The Peter O'Toole movie, "The Lion in Winter"-about Henry II and his four sons, shows this perfectly.
 

Rupmalya.K

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But wouldn't the AI playing sub-optimally be the most realistic thing it can do when doing RPG stuff? I wouldn't be surprised if half the things you are talking about are WaD.
So much this.I don't want AI to play this game as a strategy game.Ill rather want AI to do mistakes that real people would with their own goals and ambitions and stupidity.
For me this is not a game about winning or losing and not also about painting the world or expanding rather it is about living in the world.
 

andersonm

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Here is an example of why i think the AI needs an overhaul
i started 769 AD as olvia. A fairly difficult start one might think.
Not even 200 years later i managed to conquer constantinople and turn it into a tribal holding and I don't credit this to me being a great ck2 player. After i solidified my position over a time of maybe 50 years the rest was pretty much a formality. I could have chosen to conquer Rome instead... it wouldn't have mattered.
This didnt feel like an accomplishment or satisfying either because all i did was exploit the passiveness and bad decisionmaking of the AI and the snowball tools that the game hands me.
The AI should be at least good enough so that something as unhistoric and cheesy as this would not be possible.

This period is actually known for seemingly random tribal societies coming out of nowhere and smashing settled civilizations and Empires in very short time spans.

Sasanian Empire - 621 AD
Sassanian_Empire_621_A.D.jpg
Arab Invasion - 622 to 661
Map%2Bof%2BSpread%2Bof%2BIslam.gif

Byzantium - 1025
2560px-Map_Byzantine_Empire_1025-en.svg.png
Seljuk Turks - 1040 - 1071
Map-History-Seljuks.png
 

acsa4

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I'd also like to add the consideration that CK2 is already a game that requires a huge time investment just to learn all the various rules and features and find all of the buttons you can click (just watch youtubers, most of them don't know there's a realm tree button, a dynasty tree, a bloodline ledger, etc). I know because I've recently been engaged in teaching my family members CK2 and they struggle like crazy despite all of them having university degrees. However, they keep at it because even though it takes a hundred hours just to learn the game, it's fun from the start.

But if you then go and make the A.I. significantly smarter and more player-like, as well, the game will truly get a Dark Souls kind of feel for 'beginners' (meaning players with less than 300 hours of playtime, which is the majority). Right now, you can mess up a little, and yet by doing something smart still get out on top. The difficulty is just right for maximum fun for most players IMHO. Especially if you prefer to roleplay instead of conquering (which is most players, I believe) then you will actually tend to remain in the category of people for whom the difficulty feels just right - sometimes frustrating, sometimes things go wrong, but often you succeed in your goals. It's only if you've grown too large and become unbeatable that things feel not challenging enough - and so, if you're smart, you'll draw the proper conclusion and don't try to grow so large but choose different goals for yourself, or different fun limitations such as the CK2 scenario generator supplies.

So, I believe a lot of the "disagrees" come from people who feel that the current game difficulty is alright and they don't want it to be raised. That is a legitimate wish and not somehow a forum failure of terrible people having indefensible opinions: they just don't want it to get harder, they want it to stay the way it is. If the OP had called for adding another difficulty mode with more sophisticated A.I., I'm pretty sure there would have been far more people agreeing with him, because that would be great for experts to have IF they want to. But drastic changes to game design for everyone, to a game that its playerbase loves, are bound to be unpopular.

Another part of the "disagrees" may likely come from people who believe that the original post and some others simply contain a lot of hyperbole and claim that the A.I. is more stupid than it actually is according to other people's experience.

For example complaints such as "A.I.'s not EVER focusing on it's demesne(on making it stronger and bigger and on maintaining it)" just do not make sense to me at all. Does that actually HAPPEN in your game? Do you play the same game I play? My vassals (as well as others) are constantly improving their provinces, building stuff, trying to own all provinces in their dukedoms, fabricating claims, engaging in wars to increase their lands, even marrying their kids to those of other dukes to get alliances and for their descendants to then have claims on the second dukedom. Like, that's what they do all the time, non-stop.

"A.I.'s apparent primitive logic when it comes to deciding when to declare war on u . Declaring a war on u when their army is flat out weaker than yours in terms of numbers and upgrades or declaring a war on u when they are already warring multiple nations at once and losing etc," - how often does that happen?? It doesn't happen to me or the other people I know who play this, except rarely, when the character declaring the war has some personal reason for that war and is acting irrationally (just like people would do in real life).

"A.I. almost never fabricating a reasonable(strong or important) land piece of PC's or even against A.I. controlled nations and thus never pressing either," - Do you have a great spymaster and auto-stop plots? Because if you don't stop them automatically, you'll see that the A.I. constantly tries to fabricate claims on your kingdoms, large dukedoms, etc. and I've also very often seen it press such claims in wars.

I could go on, but I believe this should suffice in illuminating the "disagree"s a bit. Some are simply mostly happy with the A.I. as it is and at most would like a few tweaks here and there to increase immersion, some simply disagree with how the A.I. was represented in the OP, and some were probably a mixture of those two.

Ditto. I would however like Conclave's education A.I. to make correct "Career" choices according to their children's trait's. But that's it, I'm cool with everything else.
 

Admiral Fischer

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How do you KNOW there was no agenda?

Because AI has no agenda. Ever heard about famous Crusade of Gujarat?

Besides it seems you are quick to say bad choices are made by an agenda. Either all outcomes are random choices or they are all agenda based.

That's a complete distortion of what I've been saying. AI don't make any choice because they just roll a dice and go ahead with whatever comes with it.
 

GundamMerc

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Because AI has no agenda. Ever heard about famous Crusade of Gujarat?



That's a complete distortion of what I've been saying. AI don't make any choice because they just roll a dice and go ahead with whatever comes with it.
Care to provide actual proof?
 

acsa4

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Well it took me a long time to figure out what to do. The real issue is in the choice to intervene or not. The AI tends not to intervene. A perfect example is having two skills above 12 and giving ambitious in exchange for a rival. The AI doesn't do this and I can understand why as having a rival is not good for the most part. But as a player why not. Or diligent and getting stressed. This one the player has options the AI simply doesn't on getting rid of stress. Would we as players pick diligent in exchange for stressed out if we couldn't get rid of it so easily?
Oh no, I might have misrepresented my writing in that one. What I mean't to say was that the if a Child's childhood trait's line up with a specific education path such as martial education with the rowdy and willful trait's. I would like my landed grandson's or son's (if I were a muslim ruler in this scenario, which is a lot of the time) to pick the "ideal" career education path that makes sense or at the very least allow me to pick it for them via guardianship. Only my kin that stand in direct succession and relevance to me though, used to be able to do that before Conclave.
 

Admiral Fischer

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No I haven't. Please explain what this represents in regard to the AI having an agenda.

AI has no goal and when AI does something it's because the random dice told them to do so. There's neither decision-making logic nor agenda behind AI's action. Pope declares a crusade for India bypassing all the Middle East not because Pope is interested in spreading Christianity but because he can. More recent, on-going example would be the current mass excommunication spam, again Pope's doing. Never mind Andalusian threat, gotta excommunicate the last standing Christian king in Europe.

And then there's King of France appointing every single male in his court into bishop, Duchess of Verona matrilineally marrying into 2 years old and killing off her house, and on.
 

vandevere

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AI has no goal and when AI does something it's because the random dice told them to do so. There's neither decision-making logic nor agenda behind AI's action. Pope declares a crusade for India bypassing all the Middle East not because Pope is interested in spreading Christianity but because he can. More recent, on-going example would be the current mass excommunication spam, again Pope's doing. Never mind Andalusian threat, gotta excommunicate the last standing Christian king in Europe.

And then there's King of France appointing every single male in his court into bishop, Duchess of Verona matrilineally marrying into 2 years old and killing off her house, and on.

The Pope's still doing the mass Excommunication thing? Thought he got reined in a little.

It certainly seemed that way to me these last couple of months. Not saying he hasn't been active with Papal excommunications. But the victims seem to have at least a couple of Major Sins-Gluttony, Greed, and Sloth-on their trait bars.

I'm not saying the devs couldn't improve the Pope some more. The Pope should be taking aim at Kinslayers, Known Murderers, and Possessed Lunatics. But at least I haven't seen him hit totally innocent, all-good-traits Rulers recently...
 

Admiral Fischer

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The Pope's still doing the mass Excommunication thing? Thought he got reined in a little.

It certainly seemed that way to me these last couple of months. Not saying he hasn't been active with Papal excommunications. But the victims seem to have at least a couple of Major Sins-Gluttony, Greed, and Sloth-on their trait bars.

I'm not saying the devs couldn't improve the Pope some more. The Pope should be taking aim at Kinslayers, Known Murderers, and Possessed Lunatics. But at least I haven't seen him hit totally innocent, all-good-traits Rulers recently...

It varies on save. It's like the infamous seduction spam, or less-known homosexual problem. One day nothing happens until you're done with the save. Other day, all is fine then, you look around and notice it.