why the 1444 start date is bad for genoa and venice

[petertel123]

it's completely impossible to stop the ottomans from becoming a powerhouse at this time, and because trade only flows from that direction playing a trading nation in italy is simply not viable in the long run
I guess it's theoretically possible to defeat the ottomans if you take them on early enough, but no nation in italy is even remotely capable of this
I've never seen the ottomans remain small. come to think of it, i don't think i've ever even seen them lose a single war, they completely destroy russia for example and I've often seem them come into europe and smack austria or other strong nations like spain or even france
I know the devs have stated that they won't change the start date, but an earlier start date would give much more possibilities for venice and genoa (two nations that could be very interesting if the east were more divided)

 

[Avalen]

Yeah, well, historically this time was the beginning of the trade republics' decline. It'd make sense that it would be a challenging time in-game. I say if you want an earlier start, use a mod. There are plenty of good ones that do just that.

 

[TheRevanchist]

There's a reason the bookmark is called "Rise of the Ottomans"

 

[Mortheim]

Venice can destroy them. You should join HRE, forge alliance with Austria or France (also Mamluks could help you with Porta). Attack them, when they will fight in Asia Minor, and block their ports and Bosphorus. Carpet-siege Balkans and after you control all their Europe territories - let them attack in Edirne. You need good general and some mercs.

Same for Genoa.

 

[delra]

I killed Ottomans with Venice too many times to count... Just be smart about it, opportunistic. It's not EU3 where you could DOW them on day 1 of the game and next year sign a peace giving you the whole of Greece while the rest of their empire collapses into chaos.

 

[Nilmerf]

Ottomans are powerful at start, but decline in the later years as their military units become obsolete compared to Western. Ignore them and focus on forming Italy or something. Genoa is a tough start as is, though. And especially now with the overbearing AE mechanics. I remember forming Italy with Genoa in one of my first EU3 games.. must have been 7 years ago, wow.

 

[volseraph]

You can certainly beat the Ottomans early as Venice—generally by overpowering their navy and splitting their army on either side of the Bosphorus. (Bonus points if you vassalize Byzantium first so you can get them to return piles of cores.) A solid ally helps (Poland-Lithuania's in good position for you.)

 

[delra]

Here's a hint, they will all go to defend Crimea against Russians sooner or later...

 

[krelian]

It's trivial to kill Ottomans in EU4. Just spam galleys, keep an eye on their troops or just wait until they go to war against the Mamelukes, declare war when their forces are in Anatolia, sink navy and siege Greece and Bulgaria. You won't get 100% war score from this, but you can cripple them pretty badly. If you time it really well, the increased WE from occupied European lands, together with lower manpower regain and lower tax base might even give the Mamelukes enough of a hand to win vs the Ottos. Regardless, worst case scenario they will fight to a bloody standstill. Ottomans can't really conquer Syria with Istanbul and the rest of European holdings occupied and the entire country under full blockade. The only thing you need to make sure is to sink their navy ASAP before they blob and get enough of a force limit to make that difficult without blobbing yourself first.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's trivial to kill Ottomans in EU4. Just spam galleys, keep an eye on their troops or just wait until they go to war against the Mamelukes, declare war when their forces are in Anatolia, sink navy and siege Greece and Bulgaria. You won't get 100% war score from this, but you can cripple them pretty badly. If you time it really well, the increased WE from occupied European lands, together with lower manpower regain and lower tax base might even give the Mamelukes enough of a hand to win vs the Ottos. Regardless, worst case scenario they will fight to a bloody standstill. Ottomans can't really conquer Syria with Istanbul and the rest of European holdings occupied and the entire country under full blockade. The only thing you need to make sure is to sink their navy ASAP before they blob and get enough of a force limit to make that difficult without blobbing yourself first.

A Venice that colonizes (use Connaught route) and finishes the ideas to get galleys +50% is devastating. You can farm a lot of war score off war goal with the Ottomans being unable to reach you, and Ghazi doesn't count for ships at all.

As soon as Byzantium is dead, you can release them as a vassal because Crete has their core. Then, constantly use war goal to return cores to Byzantium (0 AE). After the Ottos are weaker, you can take two pieces of land to separate their capitol (Europe) from their Asian/possibly African holdings. This makes those "distant overseas" colonies, which means that vassaling the Ottos is a real possibility .

Considering it can join the Empire too, there's not much challenge to Venice. Genoa has it a bit harder, but doable.

 

[Gamera]

plus in 1444, Venice has a large chump of lands in North Italy, which wasn't the case in 1399.
But yeah, easy to beat the Ottomans when playing venice with the Bosphorus Blocus strategy.

A bit harder for Genoa as it's starting position is a bit worse (though you're in the HRE to begin with) but still quite feasible.

Also, I never had any problem to dominate the mediterranean trade as Genoa or Venice: spam your navy on alexandria and/or constantinople and dry up the Otties.

 

[Hinchus]

Here's a hint, they will all go to defend Crimea against Russians sooner or later...

They might even ally Georgia for that!

 

[Casiru]

Genoa has some of the best NI's in the game and they can get an alliance with France most games. All they have to do is link France to the Balkans and the French will sort out the Ottoman problem for you.

 

[gaius valerius]

Genoa has some of the best NI's in the game and they can get an alliance with France most games. All they have to do is link France to the Balkans and the French will sort out the Ottoman problem for you.

I've seen that blow up in the French their faces recently. Ironman as Castile having formed Spain. Allied with France. Date was around 1550. France owned the entire western side of the Rhine river while the Ottomans had reached their historical size, having incorporated Syria, Egypt, Tripoli and Bosnia. I'm not sure what happened, most likely France was defender of the faith for they rushed to the defense of the Poles and Austrians, 2 otherwise sworn enemies of my French-Spanish alliance block, in a war started and led by Crimea. This war was truly epic and ended in utter exhaustion for both factions it seems. I got called in but didn't do anything of notice other than assault Tunis and Tripoli.

Ottomans faced just about all of catholic Europe: France, Poland-Lithuania, Austria and a bunch of minors all assaulted the Porte. War dragged on for some 5-7 years, Austria was kicked out early after suffering some serious defeats, but France and Poland had taken large chunks of Rumelia, while my vassals were seizing land in Egypt and Tripoli. However the war eventually turned in the last 2 years: France kept winning battles and taking lands but her troops kept dwindling. As Austria backed out and Poland was forced to bend they were left alone and the Ottomans eventually won the upper hand.

I don't understand why France didn't sue for peace when the score was at a smashing 28% but eventually it had fallen to 0%. The most futile war I'd ever seen and the first time I saw France met her match

Still, that they kept it up for so long on their own in Ottoman heartland. France is the beast of Europe still.

 

[RegulasFade]

Genoa has a great start especially with the current AE rules. As you can be conquering both taly, and the caucuses at the same time, you can potentially even go for north Africa if you get Sardinia or the like. In all cases your never overlapping AE so you can just go on a conquering spree. Plus you can generally nab Georgia for free in the first few years.

For trade try going for Malmuks/Alexandria at some point before the ottomans get that far through their territory. Also the Crimea is before Constantinople.


If you really got balls take Constantinople before the ottomans do.

 

[delra]

The real prize is Arabia though, and not trade but all the spice provinces. You need to chew through Egypt by the 1600s, being either Venice or Genoa. Get production buildings going there and you can conquer Ottos with mercenaries.

 

[Golladan]

Genoa has some of the best NI's in the game

You're kidding, right?

 

[petertel123]

Genoa has some of the best NI's in the game and they can get an alliance with France most games. All they have to do is link France to the Balkans and the French will sort out the Ottoman problem for you.

i just looked at the venetian ideas and they're pretty terrible actually
extra diplomat, useless
spy defense, useless
galley cost, pretty useless
reduced attrition, meh
stability cost reduce, meh
you don't even get increased naval forcelimits

 

[Checco]

Venice has more territory, and more useful naval ideas. Just join the HRE and proceed to outfleet anyone with galleys.

Genoa starts in the HRE. Just avoid engaging in offensive wars until you outfleeted anyone.

Simple as that, it requires some years of preparations, but it's easy as pie.

 

[MiniaAr]

Venice has more territory, and more useful naval ideas. Just join the HRE and proceed to outfleet anyone with galleys.

Genoa starts in the HRE. Just avoid engaging in offensive wars until you outfleeted anyone.

Simple as that, it requires some years of preparations, but it's easy as pie.

How would you join the HRE? Vassalise Milan as soon as possible and give it back Brescia + increasing relations with Austria will suffice? Do you have to release Croatia as well? I can see it being useful to then drag Austria against Hungary to get back Croatian cores, at least the coast.

Also regarding ideas, Venice and Genoa really have comparable sets. Below bonuses they have in common:

• +10% Trade Efficiency
• -33% Galley Cost
• -33% Naval Maintenance Modifier
• +10% Trade Power Abroad
• -10% Stab Cost Modifier

Then Ideas they don't share:

• Venice:
  
  • +1 Diplomat
  • +10% national Trade Income Modifier
  • +30% National Spy Defense
  • -10% naval and land attrition
  • +50% Galley Combat Ability
• Genoa
  
  • +20% Moral of Navies
  • +10% National Tax Modifier
  • +25% Naval Forcelimits Modifier
  • -10% Shipbuilding Times
  • -0.50 Interest per annum

Basically, I don't see one being much better than the other. Venice's diplomat is useful in a vassal-based strategy while Genoa's additional naval forcelimits bonus is the best one they have. Venice's +10% trade income is clearly better than Genoa's +10% Tax and the other bonuses are not really gamebreaking.
For Venice, instead of Spy Defense, a Spy Efficiency bonus would at least be more situationnally useful.