Exactly, though I'm curious as to how this will work for the upper-level guns (the ones which only historically fielded in tanks). Will they just have a movement speed of 2 and be overrun by infantry?
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Why Space marines are not overpowered, and how you can easily counter them
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That is good, but will encourage a new kind of space marine, the tank will provide armor and breakthrough and a minimum gun, the attack will be provided by line artillery!
Yes. Current arty3+40% is 47.6 soft attack, while before the rebalance it was 66. That is almost 39% more soft attack at top tier. That is a lot of damage. This meta died because they nerfed the arty so hard.
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Not really a 100% fair test.
- 6 Attackers vs. 4 defenders. Why? Why not 4 vs 4 or 6 vs 6
- You attacking division has 206 soft attack and 412 in battle (almost the double). The defending division has 232 soft attack and 243 in battle. (Shouldnt that be more with 40% entrechnment, can you show the full modifiers to attacker soft attack and defender soft attack?) So that means you used external modifiers to tilt the combat in your direction. In your case that was max planning bonus (65%) and air support. (Anything else?) That's fine, but you move the fight to another dimension. Against CAS use AA, maybe get more entrencment bonus if the attacker has huge planning bonus. (Is counter attacking a bit to disrupt planning a thing?)
- If you use CAS use at least support AA for the defender.
- Your Attacking force costs 6600IC, the defending force costs 7700IC it's not much cheaper.
- Your CAS have an IC cost of ~5000. Should maybe be calculated for the attacking force IC than the attackers are way more expensive.
- 1944 CAS with 8 upgrades and perfect doctrine has an opportunity cost. Not everybody will have it.
These test are always done in plains. Your attacking division is one that you make in masses. But you will never break any defender on good terrain (e.g. behind river) with these.
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Facepalm. Are you this unable to realize that you have to demonstrate your theory in a neutral test environment. Arguing that you can beat space marines when you set out to counter them is pointless. The argument against Space Marines is that they counter tanks too easily. It's the same argument against submarines, you can counter them but it's a bigger investment than subs themselves.
If you can force your enemy to specialize his army to defeat space marines, you can build regular tanks that don't get pierced by your infantry plus SPAA which murder your CAS and you get rolled.
Or the obvious issue of fighters killing CAS as well. What you did was not demonstrate that space marines can be beaten, you demonstrate that CAS wins battle if there is no enemy anti air or fighter cover.
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I think it is absolutely shocking that people use tank destroyers to defend against tank attacks. What is the world coming to? They even put their tank destroyers in favourable terrain and foritified positions!! Unheard of!
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There's also a big difference between why people used to say they were OP and why people say they are OP now.
In the old days, the reason they were OP (and still are against the AI) is that without at least some piercing from AA or AT, space marines get the armor bonus against enemies. So, you could attack with infantry divisions using the HTDs to get armor bonus. Broad front offensives with space marines could sweep the enemy before you with ease.
Of course, as I kept telling people all those years ago, you just need some AT and it puts a stop to that nonsense. That took some players over a year to figure out.
The current argument has to do with an inability to push at all in a cost-efficient manner due to complicated interactions between armor mechanics, TD losses in infantry divisions, and a few other things.
I won't speak to vanilla HOI4 and the effectiveness of space marines, but in our MP mod and with our house rules, I don't think they are OP.
Against the AI, though, space marines are almost an "I win" button. You don't even want to know the casualties I inflicted on AI Germany the last time I played France and used HSPAA in space marine formations. You think the German 88 was awesome? Ha, I dare historical Germany to come up with anything comparable to the losses I inflicted with a nameless French AA gun.
In the old days, the reason they were OP (and still are against the AI) is that without at least some piercing from AA or AT, space marines get the armor bonus against enemies. So, you could attack with infantry divisions using the HTDs to get armor bonus. Broad front offensives with space marines could sweep the enemy before you with ease.
Of course, as I kept telling people all those years ago, you just need some AT and it puts a stop to that nonsense. That took some players over a year to figure out.
The current argument has to do with an inability to push at all in a cost-efficient manner due to complicated interactions between armor mechanics, TD losses in infantry divisions, and a few other things.
I won't speak to vanilla HOI4 and the effectiveness of space marines, but in our MP mod and with our house rules, I don't think they are OP.
Against the AI, though, space marines are almost an "I win" button. You don't even want to know the casualties I inflicted on AI Germany the last time I played France and used HSPAA in space marine formations. You think the German 88 was awesome? Ha, I dare historical Germany to come up with anything comparable to the losses I inflicted with a nameless French AA gun.
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I guess this sort of explains why people don't use space marines in multiplayer games. They are countered by a simple 20 width.
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Nice try, still false.
"I guess this sort of explains why people use AA in multiplayer games." should have been the right answer.
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Personally I use AA in games to counter enemy air. They rarely if ever pierce enemy armored divisions.
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My dear soviet comrade,
AA is used to counter planes, not tanks. It were the planes that in OP's example destroyed those space marines, not the attacking division.
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And with AA, what happened ? The division lost to the space marines.
Oh what a surprise. He didn't even read the topic.
Oh what a surprise. He didn't even read the topic.
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Favorable terrain being plains tiles? Also, you can phrase sub4 in the same way... "I find it shocking that people make stealthier subs to sink convoys!" The issue is that when it cannot be countered/spending the extreme cost to counter it near-guarantees a loss, they ruin the game.
Meh, that's fair enough for infantry on infantry.
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No one is. Everyone (except for Secret Master, who has been very respectful, thank you to them) is just going "oh stupid metagaming noobs are so set on the "meta" that they can't counter space marines."
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You know AA can pierce a 40 width light tank division right?
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You know that AA is there to prevent CAS from winning the fight ?
Stop using strawmen, you are ridiculous. I precisely explained to you what purpose serves the AA here.
You have not even read the topic, again.
Please, read carefully :
1 - The op claimed that a division won against space marines while using CAS and no AA on the division
2 - Then he added AA instead of arty on the same space marine division : The division now wins
3 - You claim that AA can't pierce tanks
Please, I don't know how to explain it better, maybe you should learn some english. Could I explain it to you in another language ? I can explain it to you in french if you fail to grasp the concept of "A wins against B not because A is better than B but because of CAS, but when you give B AA, then B wins".
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It was a little unclear from the diary if that was the case. I'm delighted to hear they will be changing that. One of the issues I've had with
"well you counter template X but building more Y", is the production system in HOI IV is specifically (and very realistically I would add) designed to make it difficult for you to switch from building lots of infantry, artillery, or tanks to build lots of CAS. The problem with SpaceMarines in SP is that even if the AI was smart enough to start building lots more AT guns and more CASes by the time the actual equipment reach the front lines in large quantities the battle was decided.
I'm curious how they will handle the situation. There should be a substantial attack and defense bonus if your opponent can't pierce your frontal armor. It seems to me that bonuses should apply at the battalion level but wouldn't have a big impact at the divisional level. In any case, the 50% bonus was one of the gamified aspects of HOI IV, that I disliked I'm glad to see it is going away.
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