Why so silent about the counters **Read post #1 before replying to this thread**

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Calders

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As I said in that infamous DD11 thread, what is more apparent to beginners? That a circle-ish symbol is a tank, or that a tank is a tank?

Personally I agree and would use a silhouette in the counter... I don't think NATO or not is a big issue here as that is easy to mod.

Also nobody is arguing for the removal of 3d models (we understand the realities of the games industry and that many people will like the models), its the addition of a counter only view as an option that many of us would like to see (as has been done before in HOI)
 

BarrosRodrigues

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As I said in that infamous DD11 thread, what is more apparent to beginners? That a circle-ish symbol is a tank, or that a tank is a tank?
Well if you're catering for beginners then you have a point (...); but if what you want is to give more info at a glance I think that counters will be able to deliver it better just like Modestus showed here:

we can instantly see that there is a medium armor brigade in the province (and that it is the strongest brigade) which is something that might not be 100% apparent when watching a 3d model especially at a glance (...).


battleindicator2copy_zps6ffa90c8.jpg
 

Darkath

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Well for starters we can instantly see that there is a medium armor brigade in the province (and that it is the strongest brigade) which is something that might not be 100% apparent when watching a 3d model especially at a glance (...)

@Modestus Nice job.

There is already an icon that says "Medium Armour Brigade" in this picture if you look.
battleindicator_zps07d37d5a.jpg



Just because he changed the Pictogram (Nato pictograms will already be an option in game, as Podcat said in his post in that other thread !) doesn't add any more information to the counter.
 

BarrosRodrigues

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There is already an icon that says "Medium Armour Brigade" in this picture if you look.
battleindicator_zps07d37d5a.jpg



Just because he changed the Pictogram (Nato pictograms will already be an option in game, as Podcat said in his post in that other thread !) doesn't add any more information to the counter.

That seems to me like a generic tank counter but even if that is true we really have to look hard to actually see it; if there are distinct counters for armor given their size I wonder if anyone will be able to tell the difference between LARM, ARM, HARM or SHARM especially at a glance. Btw looking at that 3d tank from above I have no idea of what model it is.
 

telesien

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I wonder why people think counters may look even remotely natural on this map...
 

Calders

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I wonder why people think counters may look even remotely natural on this map...

Well I think some of the people who prefer counters would also prefer a map that looks more like a map rather than a satellite image... and the two do go together as a stylistic choice. In the counter / map style you play the general looking over his battle maps, in the model / satellite style you are a god like entity looking down on the world. I think the former is more suitable to a WW2 game but the later more suitable to a game like EUIV. But obviously that is just personal preference.
 

Soapy Frog

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With respect, how does a modern NATO counter system from 1986 "say WWII all over it"?

Here is an allied operations map from the Normandy landings. Look familiar? There is areason why the NATO symbology looks like this... it is what the US and British were already using.

1944_operational_map.jpg

As I said in that infamous DD11 thread, what is more apparent to beginners? That a circle-ish symbol is a tank, or that a tank is a tank?
No one has suggested that 3d models be removed from the game, only that there be an option to turn them off and just use counters if you desire it. So a new player coming into the game his first experience would be with 3d models. More experienced players who prefer counters could turn them off.
 

Gre

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Counters or models aside - is there going to be strength value on the icon? Don't the counters in HOI3 give the unit's attack and defense strength? 1-1, 3-4, etc?
 

Gre

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Here is an allied operations map from the Normandy landings. Look familiar? There is areason why the NATO symbology looks like this... it is what the US and British were already using.

View attachment 118700
.

My ideal would be a game with "counters" that look like this - not necessarily hand-drawn (but that would be cool too), but with all those lines for movement, corps responsibilities, and frontage and the dotted likes around units whose location isn't precisely known...
 

unmerged(83175)

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Also what for me is problematic with those3d models is that I love tanks and I want to add lots of new and different tanks/td/ag's to the game. Which I can and will do with HoI4, but what I can't do is make different 3D models for those tank/ag/td designs that aren't included with 3D model pack. Which means because I can't disable those 3d models that a wrong armored vehicle will be shown on the map, while it should look like something else.

Ofcourse this isn't important for lots of players as a tank is a tank for them and don't care if the tank matches the model name. A lot of people aren't bothered that all mods, except one. Have none matching model pictures, tech component names and model names...
But for me it is super important.;-)
 

Darkath

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T. Btw looking at that 3d tank from above I have no idea of what model it is.

Good thing there is a counter (that you can have NATO-style in game) just under the said tank.

Really I don't understand what all this is about. Podcat went through the trouble of explaining that 1. It will be moddable 2. There is a NATO option in game and 3. There is actually more information on screen compared to the previous system. 4. They are a 3 man team working on such a huge game with limited resources.
At this point they gave this issue the most attention that anyone sane could reasonably expect given that the game is heavily WIP and not out before several months.

And still people are complaining. I liked the HOI3 counter, and i'll probably play with the NATO option in HOI4 because i'm now used to them.
But really the arguments are getting weaker and weaker on the pro-counter side of the debate.



As for the non-nato icons they are different for each type of brigade/regiment, but we already know that from several DDs ago :

attachment.php


The icons probably changed since then, but you can see at a glance there is 2 LARM and 2 ARM battalions + 2 MEC and 2 MOT regiments + ENG + REC + ART + AT support battalions in this division.
 
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unmerged(83175)

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You'll be able to disable them in your mods.

If it is possible to mod exactly the counter in as shown in the most recent post of Tommylotto. Everything is alright for me.
 

Darkath

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If it is possible to mod exactly the counter in as shown in the most recent post of Tommylotto. Everything is alright for me.

What we know is you can disable the 3D models that pains you so much.

The counters, like any other UI element in recent PDS games should be able to be modded fairly easily depending on your artistic skills.

What you probably won't be able to do is adding information that doesn't exist in game, like relative attack values, which are fairly useless anyway)
 

Acesandeights

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It's evident the devs have a lot of passion behind their efforts to develop this game for a larger audience by making it more accessible, with well put together mechanics, certainly more polished than the HoI3 release and ultimately more bankable; I don't doubt they'll succeed. As a consequence, some of the things we have grown accustomed to will inevitably evolve.

However, it just seems like there's an ever-growing list of items that fairly large numbers of long time players have come to expect, which are being relegated to the inbox of the (currently hypothetical) HoI IV Modding community. Now I know from the coffee vs. tea explanation offered up by one of the devs that the Devs are (rather refreshingly) not trying to pitch their product as being the best fit for all interested in the genre. That said, the HoI series isn't like coffee. If it was, I could get Hearts of Iron anywhere. Hell, it's not like most other grand strategy or world war 2 franchises that are on the market and some of us have been coming to Paradox for years to get it, so to see all of the jarring changes in attempts to make the game more enticing to new players (be they aficionados of other Paradox titles or not), and very little concern for the expectations of fairly large portions of the existing game's fanbase over pretty basic thematic issues, is a bit disconcerting. Obviously, many may disagree with that assessment, but that's why they're called opinions, folks.

Fortunately, at the end of the day, it's just a game and whether your poison is HoI1 (never played it), HoI2, DH, AoD, HoI3 or whatever else, we always have those games to go back to, and to be fair, as critical as I am of certain aspects, this game has some great new additions (huge things people have been requesting for ages), so it's a wait and see situation. Hopefully there will be a robust modding community to take advantage of an incredibly well coded and put-together game that is also mod-friendly.
 

Calders

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You'll be able to disable them in your mods.

You are soi convinced it will be easy to make a counter only option in mods (that works well) and at the same time you accept the reason that the Dev's don't make a counter only option is because it will require too much effort. Do you see the problem here?

I think there are a lot of good reasons to believe a working mod might be problematic, sure we can make the models disappear but the vanilla counters are in the wrong position, also they are too small, can we improve their design. Lots of stuff we won't know until we see the game and then it will be too late (at least to change any of the stuff in the .exe file)
 

Soapy Frog

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  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
Counters or models aside - is there going to be strength value on the icon? Don't the counters in HOI3 give the unit's attack and defense strength? 1-1, 3-4, etc?
Does not appear so, and this is another loss. For all their problems, the attack and defence numbers did serve as an indicator of relative power. It was useful information, and it seems we will no longer have it.

Something similar to that would be great. Just a numerical indication of tech level would be enough for me.
 
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