Why so silent about the counters **Read post #1 before replying to this thread**

[Soapy Frog]

Regarding representation of info in a model instead of a counter, I think a counter gives info in a much better (neat) way, having into account how human eye works. Colours (especially red) are much easily spotted by human eye than the movement of an animation (there is a reason why traffic lights are just different colour lights, and not animations all of the same colour but in different positions). On top of that, there is a limit to what the human eye can pay attention to without quickly becoming tired, and an overloaded with info map (or a map where you are constantly zooming) can turn to be almost as bad as a no info map.

Yes this exactly how I feel also. Iconography is simply clearer especially if you need to take in a whole lot of info quickly.

Now in general I have been extreme impressed by the dev diaries so far, but even I was surprised at how the last dev diary made my heart sink. Why is this issue so important? Because clarity simply trumps graphics in a strategy game. I remember the gameplay demo back in the summer from games on, which was great to watch but really it was very hard to tell what was going on during the Polish invasion; I told myself "well at least we'll have counters and the political map to ease the strain". Now it turns out we have neither.

I try to keep my optimism up that modding will be able to fix this but it really has been a blow to my morale. Keep in mind I absolutely do not want to deny these great graphics to people who want it, I just want for myself to play with a simpler view so my aged and tired eyes and brain can keep up.

 

[Soapy Frog]

2. The battle direction indicator isnt something thats inheritly tied to a counter at all. there is no reason it cant be shown as well as the direction of the model

As long as there is a graphical icon representing the battle direction that is not inextricably tied to the 3d model. If it's tied to some animation of the 3d model that seems to me that it will be very hard to figure out what's going on without a lot of squinting.

Didnt you guys look at screenshots we released at all? There is no such thing as a useless "sprite" mode like in hoi3 without a counter indicating who it belongs to and its strength etc

The counter has all the info I really need, and yet it is absolutely tiny. Can it be made larger and clearer? Maybe have a slider option in gfx that let's us scale it up so it's as big as the 3d model (or anywhere in between to suit the taste of the player)? Also it is confusingly offset from the centre of the province, can it be more, or better yet completely centered?

I can imagine if the counters were centered in the province and scalable in size so the could be the largest thing in the province I would have many less concerns.

Also if possible a little number/text on the counter showing the tech/type of unit please. I can't rely on knowing the difference between a Char 1B and a Somua S35 at a glance, and I certainly will never be able to see the difference between an infantry with a Springfield or a Garand.

 

[Modestus]

Every PDS game show the direction a unit is heading towards with a movement animation and a big arrow on the UI. I really wouldn't worry about that. And the Battle indicator (green-yellow-red numbers) were so useful that i really doubt podcat would decide to scrap it (or he has to replace it with something even better)

Yes if I remember correctly the battle indicator was a suggestion from someone on the forum and Paradox thought it was such a good idea they included it for HOI III.

I am using the screen shots that we have to create what they game may look like using sprites and counters and battle indicators, it should be clear to most people that a combination of the two risks confusion rather then clarity.

You can also see that the actual sprite itself will become almost an irrelevancy once you start having different types of divisions in the same province I would in fact suggest that having a counter + the smaller counters could convey way more information then a sprite could ever do.

I will create a mock-up just to see myself what it could look like.

 

[Darkath]

I am using the screen shots that we have to create what they game may look like using sprites and counters and battle indicators, it should be clear to most people that a combination of the two risks confusion rather then clarity.

Sorry but this makes no sense at all.

Sprites in recent games (EU3 and beyond, i don't know about the previous ones) have always destacked themselves when moving towards different provinces. The mock-up you created does not make sense in this regard.

What you would have at this close zoom-level is most likely 2 tank sprites moving in different directions and possibly two counters.

I'm at work so i can't provide a better screenshot i had to google it but please consider the following EU4 screenshot : Disregard the naval battle going on, here you can see 2 boats moving in opposing direction, they aren't stacked with each other and they have a separate counter.

This is what most likely happen in your example, 2 separate sprite+counter combo moving in different directions.

 

[seeds24]

Sorry but this makes no sense at all.

Sprites in recent games (EU3 and beyond, i don't know about the previous ones) have always destacked themselves when moving towards different provinces. The mock-up you created does not make sense in this regard.

What you would have at this close zoom-level is most likely 2 tank sprites moving in different directions and possibly two counters.

I'm at work so i can't provide a better screenshot i had to google it but please consider the following EU4 screenshot : Disregard the naval battle going on, here you can see 2 boats moving in opposing direction, they aren't stacked with each other and they have a separate counter.

This is what most likely happen in your example, 2 separate sprite+counter combo moving in different directions.

HOI4 will have more provinces and more units than CK2/EU4

 

[Darkath]

HOI4 will have more provinces and more units than CK2/EU4

And ?

This is only relevant at the closest zoom level anyways.

 

[kaspar42]

To be fair they already do, but only when zoomed along way out. I think that switch should probably happen earlier (and ideally be modable). I also agree that the real test is going to be what it looks like with a conflict on the scale of Barbarossa. We wait with anticipation for the day we will see that... but I would guess it won't be any time soon.

Why modable? It should just be a slider in the options menu.

 

[PnGuin]

I really hope the dev team will reconsider the counter thing.

Me too. I find the sprites and 3d models messy for this kind of war game. I know a lot of this is personal preference, but I'm not interested in the "Axis and Allies" look and feel this brings to the game.

 

[Modestus]

Put together quickly but to me it has more clarity is easily modded and says WWII all over it.

 

[No idea]

Not bad at all for a quick work. Anyway, i guess all we can hope for at this stage is that they move something out of the exe file so that modders can give us, someday, counters which display a lot of info instead of just kind of unit and number of divisions. That, or hope for a counter dcl.

 

[Modestus]

Sorry but this makes no sense at all.

Sprites in recent games (EU3 and beyond, i don't know about the previous ones) have always destacked themselves when moving towards different provinces. The mock-up you created does not make sense in this regard.

What you would have at this close zoom-level is most likely 2 tank sprites moving in different directions and possibly two counters.



I'm at work so i can't provide a better screenshot i had to google it but please consider the following EU4 screenshot : Disregard the naval battle going on, here you can see 2 boats moving in opposing direction, they aren't stacked with each other and they have a separate counter.

This is what most likely happen in your example, 2 separate sprite+counter combo moving in different directions.

I presume you saw the tank in the Paradox screenshot, your not going to have two tanks going different ways in the same province., they wont fit

 

[Gamer_1745]

I think podcat is very open to things being able to be modded. So if the indicators for what/how a 3D model will be displayed can be exported outside I think/hope the counter maybe able to access it (out of supply, not ready to attack & other).

 

[Calders]

Why modable? It should just be a slider in the options menu.

Fair point it was just modable that occurred to me a slider would be better

Put together quickly but to me it has more clarity is easily modded and says WWII all over it.

I want this, its so much better (and better than the HOI3 counters). Personally I would change the NATO symbol to a silhouette but that's an easy mod.

 

[PnGuin]

Put together quickly but to me it has more clarity is easily modded and says WWII all over it.

Something like this is a step in the right direction.

 

[Darkath]

Something like this is a step in the right direction.

I don't see how this add any more information that we don't already have on the first mock up of Modestus.

And i don't see either how this relate more to WW2 than a WW2 tank.

But as podcat explained, you can pretty easily mod this by removing the sprite and keeping only the overlay UI.

 

[Darkath]

I think podcat is very open to things being able to be modded. So if the indicators for what/how a 3D model will be displayed can be exported outside I think/hope the counter maybe able to access it (out of supply, not ready to attack & other).

Podcat said in that other thread you can mod the sprites/models out of the game if you want to.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

I don't see how this add any more information that we don't already have on the first mock up of Modestus.

Well for starters we can instantly see that there is a medium armor brigade in the province (and that it is the strongest brigade) which is something that might not be 100% apparent when watching a 3d model especially at a glance (...)

@Modestus Nice job.

 

[safe-keeper]

With respect, how does a modern NATO counter system from 1986 "say WWII all over it"?

 

[Calders]

Podcat said in that other thread you can mod the sprites/models out of the game if you want to.

From some of the things that have been said I suspect it might not be that easy to mod them out and get something that works... I hope it is. Also some people think a counter only view should be in the base game as an option

I don't see how this add any more information that we don't already have on the first mock up of Modestus.

To be fair the counter is not adding information here... I would argue that the counter is clearer and cleaner which is particular import for large complicated battles.

 

[safe-keeper]

As I said in that infamous DD11 thread, what is more apparent to beginners? That a circle-ish symbol is a tank, or that a tank is a tank?