Why so silent about the counters **Read post #1 before replying to this thread**
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Wait, It's been forever since I came here to post tasteful Hitler jokes and got banded.
What's happened?
What is this talk about counters?
Doing a search just tells me I'm not allowed....
Genuinely interested here.
What's happened?
What is this talk about counters?
Doing a search just tells me I'm not allowed....
Genuinely interested here.
Is it allowed to ask, what your area of expertise is in the development of HoI4?
Well all you models haters, all that comparing to HOI3 and photoshopping images to show your point looks well and good, until you realise that:
1. Podcat said he HATED the HOI3 models, used counters and want something better (more informative at first glance) for HOI4 (so stop comparing it to HOI3 models)
2. Graphics are still Alpha, the devs are still not entirely happy with it and tweaking it constantly to make it more informative and less cluttered (so copy&pasting models all over the map will not make it look like the final game)
3. You did not see the game in motion, so saying how cluttered the UI is from a few screenshots is like saying how cluttered a movie is from a few screenshots (especially when devs keep saying they want the UI to NOT be cluttered)
Don't get me wrong, UI visibility and usability are valid complaints, but when the devs say they have exactly the same things in mind as you and are working hard towards that goal, the only possible reason for posting hate over and over and over again is fear or ideological crusade. Have some faith in the devs, they are not stupid.
1. Podcat said he HATED the HOI3 models, used counters and want something better (more informative at first glance) for HOI4 (so stop comparing it to HOI3 models)
2. Graphics are still Alpha, the devs are still not entirely happy with it and tweaking it constantly to make it more informative and less cluttered (so copy&pasting models all over the map will not make it look like the final game)
3. You did not see the game in motion, so saying how cluttered the UI is from a few screenshots is like saying how cluttered a movie is from a few screenshots (especially when devs keep saying they want the UI to NOT be cluttered)
Don't get me wrong, UI visibility and usability are valid complaints, but when the devs say they have exactly the same things in mind as you and are working hard towards that goal, the only possible reason for posting hate over and over and over again is fear or ideological crusade. Have some faith in the devs, they are not stupid.
I am a coder, so in general i will not be able to comment on design decisions.
I've played every version (and expansion) of HOI and each has its strengths and weaknesses.
I absolutely will give the Sprites a try. I am a counter person, but if the devs feel that the game experience will be surpassed with Sprites then I am prepared to give it a try. However I want the ability to mod it out should I find its just not for me and I will hold off buying until I see such a mod available (which I imagine will be after a few patches so that's fine as I was going to wait for a few patches before buying anyway).
I absolutely will give the Sprites a try. I am a counter person, but if the devs feel that the game experience will be surpassed with Sprites then I am prepared to give it a try. However I want the ability to mod it out should I find its just not for me and I will hold off buying until I see such a mod available (which I imagine will be after a few patches so that's fine as I was going to wait for a few patches before buying anyway).
Representation of info is absolutely vital (and, on top of that, inmersion is also important and, for some of us, models break inmersion).
Regarding representation of info in a model instead of a counter, I think a counter gives info in a much better (neat) way, having into account how human eye works. Colours (especially red) are much easily spotted by human eye than the movement of an animation (there is a reason why traffic lights are just different colour lights, and not animations all of the same colour but in different positions). On top of that, there is a limit to what the human eye can pay attention to without quickly becoming tired, and an overloaded with info map (or a map where you are constantly zooming) can turn to be almost as bad as a no info map.
Ah, very good point Garfunkel!
I also hadn't thought about it.
Here is a comparison picture of HoI3 with counters and sprites. First time in all those years that I enabled sprites. It's a screenshot of an hands-off game with the Dominican Republic (january 1945), looking at the war between Soviet Union and Germany.
Picture 1 = counters
Picture 2 = Sprites
Imo I find the sprites picture a mess, it is also very annoying to see all those little people move. It's like looking at ants on a screen. In HoI4 the 3d models will look very good, but are also bigger. I think this will make everything very confusing and crowded. While with counters only it is more clear and intuitive.
I really hope the dev team will reconsider the counter thing.
The thing that stands out the most to me in this comparison is that the bold solid colour of the counters makes it clear in an instant whose troops they are. With the models you eye is drawn to the model then you have to look beside it for the tiny flag to work out whose it is. With the counter a quick glance tells me where all my troops are where all my allies are and where my enemies are. The models just don't give a good overview they require much more effort for the brain to decipher what the eye is seeing.
The height of the stack is also a very strong visual clue to the strength of enemy forces that the brain will get at a glance.
To me the counters represent instant information over a broad area, the models are eye candy.
Im not sure how HOI4 can get around that.
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Another problem that arises with the sprite\counter combo is attacking from different directions, does for example a tank division attacking from the north to the south face in the direction its attacking?
If it does then the model will show this orientation but the small counters will remain the same whereas a large single counter simple needs the battle indicator to show the direction.
Which raises a question I have already asked does combat take place at the border as in HOI III or as in EU in the middle of the province your attacking, does anyone know this?
If it does then the model will show this orientation but the small counters will remain the same whereas a large single counter simple needs the battle indicator to show the direction.
Which raises a question I have already asked does combat take place at the border as in HOI III or as in EU in the middle of the province your attacking, does anyone know this?
1. yes of course
2. The battle direction indicator isnt something thats inheritly tied to a counter at all. there is no reason it cant be shown as well as the direction of the model
3. border
Didnt you guys look at screenshots we released at all? There is no such thing as a useless "sprite" mode like in hoi3 without a counter indicating who it belongs to and its strength etc
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after reading through that 40 page monster i must say that the current combo of 3D Map + Sprites is giving me somewhat of a derection as far as HOI4 goes.
Thing is, to me its not just about information delivery but also about immersion. ever since HOI2 i played with counters mostly on the political mapmode and I did so purely because that combo delivered a feeling that I was a general sitting over an map planning a war. sprites simply ruin this feeling for me, plain and simple.
and i get that the devs had good intentions and the 3D maps looks nice and all but thats not something that is high on my priority scale in a grand strategy game set in the WW2 area.
as much as it pains me to say the way HOI4 is currently going reminds me of X-Rebirth. The Devs had a lot of good intentions and oooh, shiny new graphics, less micro and whatnot and it ended up being pretty much the worst game by far in the entire series. by trying to appeal to a broader audience they ultimately didnt please anyone and the game became one big mess.
so bottom line, if its sprites or no HOI4 ill opt for no HOI4
Thing is, to me its not just about information delivery but also about immersion. ever since HOI2 i played with counters mostly on the political mapmode and I did so purely because that combo delivered a feeling that I was a general sitting over an map planning a war. sprites simply ruin this feeling for me, plain and simple.
and i get that the devs had good intentions and the 3D maps looks nice and all but thats not something that is high on my priority scale in a grand strategy game set in the WW2 area.
as much as it pains me to say the way HOI4 is currently going reminds me of X-Rebirth. The Devs had a lot of good intentions and oooh, shiny new graphics, less micro and whatnot and it ended up being pretty much the worst game by far in the entire series. by trying to appeal to a broader audience they ultimately didnt please anyone and the game became one big mess.
so bottom line, if its sprites or no HOI4 ill opt for no HOI4
A bit unfair to ask some of the following because I suspect Paradox will be adjusting it right up to release day but.........
As the model orientates itself to show the direction of attack I presume the counters must maintain a fixed position regardless of what the model is doing, as seen in screen below counters can then merge with model, is this a problem?
If you have 2 infantry and an armoured division in a province and attack with only the infantry does the game show only the infantry sprite attacking I presume it must ?
Related question I presume you cannot at the same time show the tank sprite (not attacking) as this would mean two sprites in the same province?
Battle indicator would look something like this ?
Just realised something else, if you attack in two different directions from the same province you will require another battle indicator which could mean it could end up looking something like this, attack by infantry and an attack by armour.
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I must admit I got a sinking feeling when I heard there would be no counters-only option. But to be fair, I don't think we have enough information to judge it yet either.
In this image from DD11, I think the models look nice and does no harm, while at this zoom level there are so many that I feel they add too much clutter to the screen, given how small the provinces are at this level. Perhaps the models could be set to vanish at a certain zoom level?
What I would really like to see is an image of a busy Barbarossa front, similar to this, to better judge how well it works with counters+models.
IMHO models works really well in games like CK and EU, where armies tend to concentrate in a few large stacks, meaning there usually aren't that many models on the screen at any given time. But in a WWII game with front lines, you are going to have armies in every single province over a long front line, which means a lot of models onscreen, which will take up a lot of screen space and add clutter.
If they are animated it will be even worse. Seeing models shooting at each other all along a 50+ province front line could be terribly distracting, when you also need to glean essential information on force strength, terrain, infrastructure, weather, supply, etc. from the map.
But as I said, I don't think we have enough information to judge the new system yet. Hopefully Podcat can conjure up some images and videos to lay our fears to rest
In this image from DD11, I think the models look nice and does no harm, while at this zoom level there are so many that I feel they add too much clutter to the screen, given how small the provinces are at this level. Perhaps the models could be set to vanish at a certain zoom level?
What I would really like to see is an image of a busy Barbarossa front, similar to this, to better judge how well it works with counters+models.
IMHO models works really well in games like CK and EU, where armies tend to concentrate in a few large stacks, meaning there usually aren't that many models on the screen at any given time. But in a WWII game with front lines, you are going to have armies in every single province over a long front line, which means a lot of models onscreen, which will take up a lot of screen space and add clutter.
If they are animated it will be even worse. Seeing models shooting at each other all along a 50+ province front line could be terribly distracting, when you also need to glean essential information on force strength, terrain, infrastructure, weather, supply, etc. from the map.
But as I said, I don't think we have enough information to judge the new system yet. Hopefully Podcat can conjure up some images and videos to lay our fears to rest
To be fair they already do, but only when zoomed along way out. I think that switch should probably happen earlier (and ideally be modable). I also agree that the real test is going to be what it looks like with a conflict on the scale of Barbarossa. We wait with anticipation for the day we will see that... but I would guess it won't be any time soon.
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That's the way I've imagined it too(which doesn't mean we are right). I am sure there must be some max number of counters that can be shown, but it will be annoying with lots of "..." all over the place.
A bit unfair to ask some of the following because I suspect Paradox will be adjusting it right up to release day but.........
As the model orientates itself to show the direction of attack I presume the counters must maintain a fixed position regardless of what the model is doing, as seen in screen below counters can then merge with model, is this a problem?
If you have 2 infantry and an armoured division in a province and attack with only the infantry does the game show only the infantry sprite attacking I presume it must ?
Related question I presume you cannot at the same time show the tank sprite (not attacking) as this would mean two sprites in the same province?
Battle indicator would look something like this ?
Just realised something else, if you attack in two different directions from the same province you will require another battle indicator which could mean it could end up looking something like this, attack by infantry and an attack by armour.
Those battle indicators didn't only just tell the direction they were attacking, they also at a glance told you how well the battle was or wasn't going, often changing from Red/Yellow/Green with a number next to it. I'm sure paradox will do somthing good with the system, you did actually see them in HOI3 even when using sprites, can't say ive played a game i haven't liked, they have all improved, but i have become quite accustom to using counters. I suppose in some ways, it was made it unique, along with saying "oh there goes 502nd dropping in netherlands" & XXX corp made up of the Irish/coldstream guard etc will breakthrough to them. Somthing you lose from the sprites, but im sure it will still be good. Must admit, didn't even know about NATO counters until playing HOI3. So obviously made you feel like a General.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzcVhWjxaEs&feature=player_detailpage#t=142
My main concern at the moment is this. http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ops-quot-regarding-nuclear-amp-V2-Development Since it somthing i personnally believe could have be done a bit better.
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Every PDS game show the direction a unit is heading towards with a movement animation and a big arrow on the UI. I really wouldn't worry about that. And the Battle indicator (green-yellow-red numbers) were so useful that i really doubt podcat would decide to scrap it (or he has to replace it with something even better)
Ah neat, yeah its just a nostalgic thing i think for me. In the end, im more worried about how nukes are gained, since it can be quite gamey, espeically in a custom start, which im sure they will release a similar DLC like TFH. So thats were im alittle worried. Along with save game snooping for MP games.
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