Why slaves can work only in worker stara?

[Archael90]

Or something changed?
Why slaves cannot work in specialist strata?
In a situation when enslaved pop has trait intelligent, and weak,but free pop has trait very strong and industrius... its very illogical to put those weak aliens in mines. It would be much more effective if they would work as scientists, or at least some kind of science assistents. They still be slaves, but the point of having slaves is that they do something that free pop can not, or dont want to do, and thinking in this case, would be the thing. Its only an example, slaves could work in all specialist jobs, and still be slaves.

 

[Flame13223]

Balance. If there was a special ascension perk for slavers where it would allow slaves to work more specialist jobs it would be okay, but currently its not balanced to have slaves for everything. Besides, having a wide slave to free pop disparity is bad for planet stability and should remain so.

 

[Zergor]

You can have slave as entertainers (specialists) if they are domestic servitors.
You can have slaves fill all strata if they are thralls.
Both require utopia DLC and lose the +10% to production. A fair tradeof to avoid slave being too OP because there are already buildings (processing) and governors (slaver) that buff the production of all slaves and the 10% on top of that would probably make too good as specialists.

 

[pryr]

For some reasons, enforcing complex job doesn't sound like a bright realistic idea. Most importantly, near impossible to control the quality of this work. You can't just whip a slave for not producing enough "science" and expect that it will result in more "science". Scientist will work good only if he is directly interested in that.

 

[Flame13223]

For some reasons, enforcing complex job doesn't sound like a bright realistic idea. Most importantly, near impossible to control the quality of this work. You can't just whip a slave for not producing enough "science" and expect that it will result in more "science". Scientist will work good only if he is directly interested in that.

I think a slaver ascension perk (maybe two built on top of one another) could make that work, so you end up being a sort of semi-fallen empire where you have only ruler jobs and hedonist jobs for your own species/free citizens.

 

[Askorti]

For some reasons, enforcing complex job doesn't sound like a bright realistic idea. Most importantly, near impossible to control the quality of this work. You can't just whip a slave for not producing enough "science" and expect that it will result in more "science". Scientist will work good only if he is directly interested in that.

In ancient Rome there were highly educated slaves that, for example, taught the children of patrician families. Slaves weren't always just manual labor.

 

[Flame13223]

In ancient Rome there were highly educated slaves that, for example, taught the children of patrician families. Slaves weren't always just manual labor.

Same thing in hunnic or other nomadic societies. They often captured educated people from the "more civilized" cities that they sacked and used them to educate or do finances and whatnot.

 

[Archael90]

A slave does not mean "someone worse", or someone "who has to work physically", a slave is simply a person incapacitated, treated as a tool, but the tool can be treated well, after all most of us care about their cars.
A simple example from "Game of thrones"
Attention spoilers !!!!!
There was an example of a slavery country, in which some were guardians and teachers of free children, they were not treated badly, on the contrary, after their release, riots began, because these slaves lost their homes.
A slave is suitable for any work, not necessarily physical. A slave can not only be forced to work with a whip, but also encourage to maintain. A slave may not have property, but his "master" or "owner" provides him with house and food, even if the "owner" is the state, and the food is a bowl of apples for the day.
Sure, we (roleplayers) can imagine that residential rights are slaves, but this does not change the fact that actual slaves are implemented to the game and in a rather limited form, which brakes the immersion.
I personally think that less complicated mechanics give you more space to take your individual empire look. Less specific guidelines, specific names and mechanics. Game developers, however, think differently, but when you implement something more extensive, it should be done well. I do not say that slavery is introduced "badly", I think only that it does not give "slavery" fully, but only a certain aspect, quite small and limited, not allowing to play many kinds of society based on slavery.
Hence the suggestion.
Maybe a new civic allowing slaves to live in a higher standard and work in specialist professions, but reducing the production of resources by free populations, with the proviso that free populations must be at least 50% of all.

 

[Zergor]

I may repeat myself but educated slaves exist in the game (utopia DLC) and are called thralls. Ok thrall comes with a pretty militaristic description but they are basically educated and autonomous slaves and they can be specialists. You can even make thrall worlds with nothing but thralls.

 

[MrMess85]

Same thing in hunnic or other nomadic societies. They often captured educated people from the "more civilized" cities that they sacked and used them to educate or do finances and whatnot.

But there was a prospect of freedom at the end of it and becoming a citizen. How would you simulate that in Stellaris?

 

[Archael90]

Yeah... this is hardly the same

 

[Flame13223]

But there was a prospect of freedom at the end of it and becoming a citizen. How would you simulate that in Stellaris?

I mean, if there was a system where every X years a pop gets to become a citizen I think that would be immersive and cool. I assume that would have to be something that you set in the species -> slavery type tab and perhaps a policy would have to be enabled. Could also work for residence citizen that aren't slaves for other factions. Say, work for 10 years in my empire and you become a citizen sort of deal.

 

[The Founder]

Why slaves cannot work in specialist strata?

I see two primary reasons:
1) Power. You are enslaving the people. You do not put them into positions of power, so they can screw you over.
2) Education. It does not mater if your species is intelligent, if you did not get a normal Citizen or even Resident level education, you can not work as scientist.

That is why Clerk Administration job is okay for Slaves. Administrator Ruler and scientist jobs are not.

Now someone will without a doubt, come with some stupid historical example where someone was still de jure a slave, but not de facto one.
Paradox games never cared for de jure in more then Casus Belli. De facto is what maters. And de facto those pops are enslaved. That is where the limitation of jobs and the yield/consumption bonuses come from.

FYI, there is some exceptions with non-Chattel Slavery. Afaik Domestic Servitude Slaves can work as Entertainers and a special unlimited entertainer job.

 

[Velorian]

For some reasons, enforcing complex job doesn't sound like a bright realistic idea. Most importantly, near impossible to control the quality of this work. You can't just whip a slave for not producing enough "science" and expect that it will result in more "science". Scientist will work good only if he is directly interested in that.

Well they just need motivation. Give them more than nothing, so you have something to take away. Analyze their performance and provide goals for groups of them so you can do collective punishments/rewards affecting family and friends.

Sort of like that "Artificial Morality" tech that you can research. Sabotaging the evil overlords science efforts seems a worthwhile cause on it's own, but if you need to sacrifice everything and ruin it for everyone you care about as well then it becomes less clearcut.

I think slaves should mainly have penalties for those job types, not be unable to work them. Especially they should be able to make consumer goods and alloys.

 

[Derp]

B A L A N C E

slavery is already powerful enough

 

[Dustman]

Both Nazi, Japanese and Soviets proved that slaves can work in most jobs even in modern world, given right incentive and punishment balance. It's debatable if such system could work long term, but while influx of slaves was possible, be it by external conquest or internal abuse of countryside, it worked for all of them. In Stellaris terms, expansionist slavers would have the same. Add advanced drugs, psychology, mass media and cyberimplants, and it could work in the future as well.

 

[Secret Master]

It's worth pointing out that enslaved synths can do a wide variety of jobs, not just worker strata. There are some real dystopian set ups you can have if you stop and think about your civilization. Things that make Blade Runner look like the fracking Federation in Star Trek.

 

[AlanC9]

It's a workable suggestion, theoretically. But really, do we want Paradox to have to work on rebalancing all this stuff now?

 

[The Founder]

Both Nazi, Japanese and Soviets proved that slaves can work in most jobs even in modern world, given right incentive and punishment balance.

You mean the parts where they fell behind in everything, because slave scientist did not work out?

 

[Pat Casey]

You mean the parts where they fell behind in everything, because slave scientist did not work out?

A) They didn't fall behind in everything (the nazi's especially remained the world leaders in rocketry, jet propulsion, and several niche military technologies) right up until the end of the war.
B) They actually didn't make that much use of "slaves" in scientific roles since it clashed with nazi ideology to admit that untermech could contribute to the intellectual life of the reich.
C) A lot of the top jewish (or at least non-nazi) scientists in Germany were well enough connected to see the writing on the wall and leave prior to the war (Einstein, von Neuman, Slizard, Teller, Fermi, etc)

Point isn't that you can't set up an incentive structure that will induce a slave to work as a scientist (I think you can).

Point is that that Germans and the Japanese didn't really go down that road in WW II; they probably could have, but for ideological reasons they largely did not and instead tended to use slave labor in more menial roles (factory workers, construction workers, etc).

As others have pointed out though, there are copious other examples in history where slaves were used for complex intellectual positions (everything from scribe, to factor, to doctor, to artist, to military officer).