Why Regeneration mods are king and how to fix that.

[BigWyrm67]

The Regeneration ability (Unit regenerates 15% of health each tactical turn and all health each strategic turn) is very powerful and pretty much the ONLY way to sustain your army through a long drawn out fight. The Kirko are particularly dangerous as they have access to Regeneration very early in the game with Accelerated Healing Mod. Also the Amazons and Assembly gain access to it later in their tech tree.

But factions like Dvar, Vanguard, and Syndicate have no access to Regeneration anywhere in there tech tree making these factions inherently less viable for conquest victories. Though they do have some units/mods with healing abilities (aka Healing Charge, Nanite Injectors, etc.) ALL of these mods/abilities can only be used ONCE per battle, making them completely useless after the first 4-5 turns.

In longer battles armies with Regeneration have the upper hand.

My recommended fix is simple: put healing abilities/mods on a 2/3 turn cooldown instead of once per battle use. Although this still wont make healing as powerful as Regeneration, this will certainly make healing abilities/mods significantly more viable when competing with an army using Regeneration in larger and longer battles

 

[Tropical Sunset]

The Regeneration ability (Unit regenerates 15% of health each tactical turn and all health each strategic turn) is very powerful and pretty much the ONLY way to sustain your army through a long drawn out fight. The Kirko are particularly dangerous as they have access to Regeneration very early in the game with Accelerated Healing Mod. Also the Amazons and Assembly gain access to it later in their tech tree.

But factions like Dvar, Vanguard, and Syndicate have no access to Regeneration anywhere in there tech tree making these factions inherently less viable for conquest victories. Though they do have some units/mods with healing abilities (aka Healing Charge, Nanite Injectors, etc.) ALL of these mods/abilities can only be used ONCE per battle, making them completely useless after the first 4-5 turns.

In longer battles armies with Regeneration have the upper hand.

My recommended fix is simple: put healing abilities/mods on a 2/3 turn cooldown instead of once per battle use. Although this still wont make healing as powerful as Regeneration, this will certainly make healing abilities/mods significantly more viable when competing with an army using Regeneration in larger and longer battles

 

[Tropical Sunset]

Van have lacklustre healing abilities? Let's see:

-Field Medicine.
-Healing Charge from Pug.
-Nanite mods.
-Nanite healing station operation.

That's quite a lot and my toons usually finish fights with ca. 80% of their health.

If you have serious trouble with health either bring more troops to a battle or pick a Xeno hero with Regenerative Spore Cloud perk, Purification Field mod from Prom tech or choose the Cel tech and use the healing tactical operation.

I have played Van with all techs and never had issues with healing.

 

[BigWyrm67]

Van have lacklustre healing abilities? Let's see:

-Field Medicine.
-Healing Charge from Pug.
-Nanite mods.
-Nanite healing station operation.

That's quite a lot and my toons usually finish fights with ca. 80% of their health.

If you have serious trouble with health either bring more troops to a battle or pick a Xeno hero with Regenerative Spore Cloud perk, Purification Field mod from Prom tech or choose the Cel tech and use the healing tactical operation.

I have played Van with all techs and never had issues with healing.

-Nanite Healing station is a Tactical operation, meaning it requires both Energy and Tactical points to deploy both of which are finite and also cannot be used in auto combat.
-Healing Charge and Nanite Injectors are both ONE TIME use. So unless half your army is PUGs and everyone have the Injectors mod, you are going to run out of healing in the first few turns.
-Field Medicine is unreliable because it requires the unit to be out of combat.
-"Pick Xeno tech" You shouldn't have to choose a secret tech solely around trying to supplement the lack of your factions lack of healing/regeneration.

 

[Ravaj]

What is dead may never heal.

True, mass healing gives you an edge against ai controlled armies. Without regeneration, one will have to occasionally wait for an odd turn while an always healed up stack make steady progress.

Problem is: what happens when you get focus fired? If by the end of the tactical turn, your unit is dead then no heal.

Sure, you can focus fire too, but investing on an ability that only marginally triggers may not be the best play. Or maybe it is! Depends on the situation and playstyle of all the players involved, i guess.

Anyway that different factions have to play with different constraints is fine by me so, my humble opinion is no re-balance needed here.

 

[BigWyrm67]

What is dead may never heal.

True, mass healing gives you an edge against ai controlled armies. Without regeneration, one will have to occasionally wait for an odd turn while an always healed up stack make steady progress.

Problem is: what happens when you get focus fired? If by the end of the tactical turn, your unit is dead then no heal.

Sure, you can focus fire too, but investing on an ability that only marginally triggers may not be the best play. Or maybe it is! Depends on the situation and playstyle of all the players involved, i guess.

Anyway that different factions have to play with different constraints is fine by me so, my humble opinion is no re-balance needed here.

Focusing fire will kill a unit regardless of it having Regeneration or Healing abilities, its a hard counter against everything. So I dont see how focusing fire is relevant?
And whats dead DOES heal just ask the Assembly, especially when they have Reassembly Modules backed up by Reverse Engineers (what an absurd OP combo that is).

 

[Ferrin33]

It's a hard counter because Regeneration has a budget. It's wasted if it doesn't get to use it. Every turn it gets to use their regen, it's paying off, but when it dies, it can't. The cosmite for those mods could have gone towards something that would have been useful, like more damage, armor etc.

 

[BigWyrm67]

It's a hard counter because Regeneration has a budget. It's wasted if it doesn't get to use it. Every turn it gets to use their regen, it's paying off, but when it dies, it can't. The cosmite for those mods could have gone towards something that would have been useful, like more damage, armor etc.

Like I said Focusing Fire is a hard counter to EVERYTHING; whether its more armor, more damage, Regeneration or healing abilities. Focused fire is irrelevant because its a hard counter to everything. Focusing fire isnt an ability or power, its a tactic. Trying to balance abilities around certain tactics seems a bit silly.

Let me try to explain this a bit more clearly.
Why would you ever waste an action point using a healing ability when you can get the same amount of healing done for FREE every single turn guaranteed without using action points? That is what Regeneration is.

 

[Ferrin33]

Effective health value of a unit with 100 health, 0 armor, and regen, is 100 if you kill it in one turn, 115 if you damaged it but didn't kill it that turn.

1 armor, 100 health and no regent is 111.11 effective health if you killt it in one turn, or two, or three.

But for focusing a unit down its 1 turn, yes? So just a simple 1 armor will be better than regen against focus firing units down.

 

[BigWyrm67]

Effective health value of a unit with 100 health, 0 armor, and regen, is 100 if you kill it in one turn, 115 if you damaged it but didn't kill it that turn.

1 armor, 100 health and no regent is 111.11 effective health if you killt it in one turn, or two, or three.

But for focusing a unit down its 1 turn, yes? So just a simple 1 armor will be better than regen against focus firing units down.

Ok since you are so obsessed with focused fire how about this scenario:

1 unit: 100 health, no armor, Regeneration, about 15 dmg per attack
VS
1 unit 100 health, 2 armor , No regen, about 15 dmg per attack

Who Wins?

The unit with regen!

Because almost all the damage done to him is regenerated out each turn. You assume you will always be in a position to focus fire, you wont. Your units might be dead, scattered across the map, or maybe you never made them in the first place. Either way the Regen ALWAYS wins a battle of attrition. The only way to beat regen is with overwhelming numbers focusing fire, thank you for proving my point for me.

 

[BigWyrm67]

Alternatively, Instead of buffing Healing abilities you could nerf Regeneration. 15% of health Regen each turn is a bit much, seeing how most elite units can easily sport 80-100 health and average damage is 15-20, an elite unit with regen can easily shrug off most of the damage done to them (if they are not overwhelmed). I would cut that number in half.

5-6% of health Regen sounds alot more balanced for mid-late game.

 

[NINJEW]

if your fights are going terribly long past turn 5 you're trying to pull some weird sandbagging exploit shit, most fights (even, or perhaps especially, very large ones) are usually pretty well determined by turn 3

regen is pretty good but the theoretical infinite healing it provides ultimately doesn't matter as much as a clutch lifesaving 25 hp heal at a useful moment

the strategic map healing is very good though, since heal abilities granted by mods don't heal on the map

 

[Ravaj]

Yep. Regen is viable and interesting but it is not overpowered.

Ok since you are so obsessed with focused fire how about this scenario:

1 unit: 100 health, no armor, Regeneration, about 15 dmg per attack
VS
1 unit 100 health, 2 armor , No regen, about 15 dmg per attack

Who Wins?

The unit with regen!

Because almost all the damage done to him is regenerated out each turn. You assume you will always be in a position to focus fire, you wont. Your units might be dead, scattered across the map, or maybe you never made them in the first place. Either way the Regen ALWAYS wins a battle of attrition. The only way to beat regen is with overwhelming numbers focusing fire, thank you for proving my point for me.

The fact that regen wins 1:1 battles is hardly relevant as 1:1 battles (scouts?) are hardly relevant.

Considering 6stack battles, 1turn kills will occur at the beginning of the fight. Any regen unit dying in these early turns is basically wasting cosmite on regen mod. Regen will only kick in when the opposition's damage output can no longer 1turn kill your units.

Effective health value of a unit with 100 health, 0 armor, and regen, is 100 if you kill it in one turn, 115 if you damaged it but didn't kill it that turn.

1 armor, 100 health and no regent is 111.11 effective health if you killt it in one turn, or two, or three.

But for focusing a unit down its 1 turn, yes? So just a simple 1 armor will be better than regen against focus firing units down.

The example of armour is a good one because armour is relevant in that it forces to commit more units, more damage output, per 1turn kill (you have more hp to destroy). Early turns, it delays the damage output reduction. Mid-battle it hastens the moment when opposition is no longer able to 1turn kill your amoured guys.

Basically , armour is a hard counter to focus fire

Focusing fire will kill a unit regardless of it having Regeneration or Healing abilities, its a hard counter against everything. So I dont see how focusing fire is relevant?
And whats dead DOES heal just ask the Assembly, especially when they have Reassembly Modules backed up by Reverse Engineers (what an absurd OP combo that is).

Again, consider a 6stack battle. Regen/Resurrect line up is 1 support + 5 damage dealers, resurrecting every 2 turns or so.
Armoured line up is a bold 6 damage dealers.
Regen ability, neutered by early turn focus fire, and Resurrection have to overcome 20% more starting health on front line and 20% starting damage output.
Not an easy win, is it?

My take on this is : regen can definitely wins these battles, but it can loses as well. It depends more on who takes the initiative and how close you get to optimal damage output per turn.
Regen shines in strategic layer where you can do more aggressive PvE, and have always healed up armies ready to opportunistically strike a battered opponent.

It also pressures you in going for attrition, protracted battles which brings variety to the game.

Regen is a fine feature, not overpowered. Nerfing it would make it less viable which would be a shame. Or so I think...

 

[BigWyrm67]

Ok, This thread has been dragged way off track with this Focus Fire sillyness. Lets get back to the original point.

You have two sustainability options: Healing Abilities and Regeneration. Regeneration is objectively better than Healing Abilities in every way. Regeneration does not cost any action points, it happens at the end of every turn guaranteed, and does the SAME AMOUNT of healing as healing abilities (when on elite units/heros with 80-100 HP, 15% regen heals 15 health when your average healing ability does between 15-20 healing. Almost the same).

We need to either nerf regeneration or buff healing abilities. Because there is currently no logical reason to use Healing over Regen.

Focus Fire has nothing to do with these two abilities relationship with each other!

 

[Ferrin33]

But you can use both healing abilities and regen. You can use multiple units with healing abilities on the same unit to heal it back to full. You can choose to use it on other units instead of yourself.

They function differently.

And focus fire is very relevant, as that's one of the counters to any kind of potential healing that enemies have. Taking regeneration on units is a choice, one that means that you don't take that slot in armor/shields other passive defenses which do work against focused fire very well.

 

[BigWyrm67]

But you can use both healing abilities and regen. You can use multiple units with healing abilities on the same unit to heal it back to full. You can choose to use it on other units instead of yourself.

They function differently.

And focus fire is very relevant, as that's one of the counters to any kind of potential healing that enemies have. Taking regeneration on units is a choice, one that means that you don't take that slot in armor/shields other passive defenses which do work against focused fire very well.

-And focus fire is very relevant...
Stop trying to derail this thread! I am literally comparing just two abilities. You are trying to drag irrelevant topics into this thread to divert attention off the main point and clutter up the thread. Stop your sillyness this instant!

-They function differently.
No they do not. They both HEAL. One requires action points, support units, and tactical points while the other doesnt. Both getting the same result. How hard is that to understand?

 

[Sinsling]

-And focus fire is very relevant...
Stop trying to derail this thread! I am literally comparing just two abilities. You are trying to drag irrelevant topics into this thread to divert attention off the main point and clutter up the thread. Stop your sillyness this instant!

-They function differently.
No they do not. They both HEAL. One requires action points, support units, and tactical points while the other doesnt. Both getting the same result. How hard is that to understand?

Focus fire is relevant to understand why regen and healing are different from each other.

Regen applies healing at the end of turn and only applies as much healing as you have mods that do so. It would appear I'm mistaken and that only 1 regen mod can work at a time. T.T burst healing can definitely compete with a 15% heal if there are no added sources.

Compared to a unit with stacked resistance/reduction mods who could have up to 150 effective hp and survive alpha strikes that would of otherwise killed the stacked regen unit.

Now the damaged unit can be healed for however many separate heals are in the army composition to return it to full health while the other unit is dead and no longer viable.

If you want similar comparisons, you can look at games who put burst healers and sustains on separate branches. They have very distinctive roles and applications.

By the way... aren't most burst heals 25 or more hp? The only 15hp heal I'm aware of is mantra of healing which stacks on an already existing psibuff. That means you get more than just the healing out of those action points.

 

[AnemoneMeer]

Yeah, uh, OP, that's not how that works. That's not how any of that works.

Regeneration affords you two bonuses. Strategic map healing, and a small in combat heal. On a basic T1, the heal is worth 6 HP, while the average damage potential of units is around 20-27 before armor. A turn of regeneration does not alter the actions to kill of any engagement as a result. Focus fire kills in one turn, and fire spread across multiple turns kills in two for repeaters and three for single shots with equivalent mods.

Regeneration scales with HP, a unit with 100 HP heals 15, a unit with 10 HP heals 1.5 HP. Many low tier units do not have a lot of HP, and thus gain miniscule bonuses from regeneration. The flip side is it gives strategic map full healing, but in the early game, that's not terribly helpful when compared to the sustain gods that are the assembly (where everything is healing all the time), the Dvar's trenches (which grant regeneration), the Syndicate's Exploitative Targeting System (Which clock in at a whopping 1.35X+ damage and the ability to kill from long range with perfect accuracy to boot).

Kirko actually need the regeneration aid, as they do not have the assembly's lifedrain sustain and after battle heal mechanics that allow the Assembly to sustain their melee units. Kirko is far more likely to get shot, and far less able to un-shoot themselves, so the strategic map regen brings them up to parity with the assembly in its own way. Other factions get their own toys which help their early game in their own ways, and many of these tools are better at winning fights (ETS)

Focus fire is a core component of comparing regeneration vs burst healing. Regeneration tends to give a lot of small heals, and thus benefits more the longer a fight goes on. 6HP x 20 turns = 120 HP = value. 40 hp x 1 turn (Celestian burst heal) = 40 hp. 6 HP x 1 turn = 6 hp = No value. Compare this to the Kir'ko battle doctrine, which is heavy on melee units closing the gap, and you see the problem with hanging back to let regeneration tick, namely the enemy is shooting you, but you're not good at firing back.

 

[NINJEW]

You can't just divorce the things you're comparing from the context of the rest of the game. You also cant say "what if my unit has 100hp" and only selectively consider the best case scenario for your position if you're proposing wide reaching balance changes. Most units dont have 100hp. By the time you have units that have 100hp, the game is effectively over, you already won 20 turns ago and you're just dicking around now before checking out the victory screen.

A 20 hp heal is 50% of a 40 hp unit's hp, i.e. getting over 3 turns of regen healing in a single turn. It's pretty obvious in this case why single use ability healing would need some additional limitations imposed on it, such as requiring a turn to perform.

 

[Garresh]

I disagree that Lategame units mean you've already won. Longer games can see those fielded on all sides. But regen still isn't OP because you get stronger ops and burst damage to compensate. Regen isn't that bad.