Why "Protestant" and "Reformed"

[benice1234]

I think EU4 could benefit in a bit more depth in the reformation. As it is now, England (usually) becomes "Protestant", the same religion most of northern Europe follows. I guess this could represent a general protestantism, rather than having a tonne of tiny sects, but "Reformed" later starts spawning, which is kinda weird, considering they're Protestant too.

Here's some ideas
1. Get rid of "Protestant", replace with Lutheran
2. Get rid of "Reformed", replace with Calvinist
3. Add Anglicans, or perhaps something more flexible like Elizabethan

 

[IIWW]

Protestants are (or at least were back then) the same as Lutheran (the name comes from a "protest" made on one of the Reichstags). Anglican is represented by status of restrain in appeals, I think.

 

[Rey]

And the Reformed Church was the 'official' name of the Calvinists. They lump the Anglicans together with the Lutherans, yet the Calvinists deserve their own thing... This game needs more religious depth. This has been a recurrent complaint since the beginning of the EU series, and I don't believe they will ever change it.

 

[slv]

I think the design choice for names Protestant/Reformed instead of Lutheran/Calvinist comes from the fact that Luther/Calvin did not have to be born in alternative history.

 

[AndreasPhokas]

because in this alternate timeline luther or calvin might not of exsisted? Hence the general name for both.

could of been Wolf von Hindenburg or something who started the reformation

 

[benice1234]

because in this alternate timeline luther or calvin might not of exsisted? Hence the general name for both.

could of been Wolf von Hindenburg or something who started the reformation

It's referred to as Calvinism in the code and (I think) events

 

[Rey]

because in this alternate timeline luther or calvin might not of exsisted? Hence the general name for both.

could of been Wolf von Hindenburg or something who started the reformation

Or nobody.

 

[Incompetent]

Protestants are (or at least were back then) the same as Lutheran (the name comes from a "protest" made on one of the Reichstags). Anglican is represented by status of restrain in appeals, I think.

England is Protestant in the historical bookmarks. The Statute in Restraint of Appeals is a decent model for how the Church of England started out as just a Catholic church headed by a king instead of the pope, but it's not a good fit for the English establishment's attitude towards other sects: paranoid about Roman Catholic infiltration, but much less worried about other varieties of Protestants. So for instance a Catholic king was deposed for reasons of religion in favour of a Dutch Calvinist, and the line of succession was set to go to a German Calvinist and her heirs, eventually resulting in a Lutheran king. The country also took in significant numbers of Huguenot refugees.

 

[IIWW]

England is Protestant in the historical bookmarks. The Statute in Restraint of Appeals is a decent model for how the Church of England started out as just a Catholic church headed by a king instead of the pope, but it's not a good fit for the English establishment's attitude towards other sects: paranoid about Roman Catholic infiltration, but much less worried about other varieties of Protestants. So for instance a Catholic king was deposed for reasons of religion in favour of a Dutch Calvinist, and the line of succession was set to go to a German Calvinist and her heirs, eventually resulting in a Lutheran king. The country also took in significant numbers of Huguenot refugees.

Maybe the Statue of restrain in appeals should reflect that somehow? "tolerated heretics" towards protestants and reformed, maybe +0,5 Heretics tolerance.

 

[Incompetent]

Maybe the Statue of restrain in appeals should reflect that somehow? "tolerated heretics" towards protestants and reformed, maybe +0,5 Heretics tolerance.

It's more that the Statute in Restraint of Appeals fails to model the *intolerance* of the English government towards Roman Catholics, which was worse than in some more theologically radical countries (e.g. the Netherlands). This was especially noticeable in Ireland. Conversely, if an English province is conquered by a conventional Catholic power, the locals should be especially unhappy on religious grounds (in addition to any other grievances they would have), so there needs to be a different province religion.

I think the best model is a separate Anglican religion, but the next best option is to put them with one of the continental Protestant groups. Also, there needs to be a change to how heretic tolerance works, so countries can e.g. tolerate other kinds of Protestant while being intolerant to Catholics.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

This is alt-history, so the chances of guys named Luther and Calvin developing their respective movements are unlikely.

Protestant works as a good cover-term for state-dominated, episcopal Protestantism. Making an independent Anglican faith would screw with diplomacy between England and mainland Protestants, and would also be rather railroady, unless you gave it a painfully generic name and created an event chain for any nation to pick Catholicism-minus-the-pope versus a more explicitly Lutheran-style faith. I don't see much value in this though.

 

[Chevaresqye]

This is alt-history, so the chances of guys named Luther and Calvin developing their respective movements are unlikely.

Protestant works as a good cover-term for state-dominated, episcopal Protestantism. Making an independent Anglican faith would screw with diplomacy between England and mainland Protestants, and would also be rather railroady, unless you gave it a painfully generic name and created an event chain for any nation to pick Catholicism-minus-the-pope versus a more explicitly Lutheran-style faith. I don't see much value in this though.

Paint a new icon, think up two bonus modifier, tada, you have a new Christian religion.

 

[balmung60]

I think EU4 could benefit in a bit more depth in the reformation. As it is now, England (usually) becomes "Protestant", the same religion most of northern Europe follows. I guess this could represent a general protestantism, rather than having a tonne of tiny sects, but "Reformed" later starts spawning, which is kinda weird, considering they're Protestant too.

Here's some ideas
1. Get rid of "Protestant", replace with Lutheran
2. Get rid of "Reformed", replace with Calvinist
3. Add Anglicans, or perhaps something more flexible like Elizabethan

1 & 2.) They use those names to represent both a relatively broad group of denominations and to allow the religion to plausibly start in a region where names like "Martin Luther" and "John Calvin" would be atypical, not to mention that the historical figures of Martin Luther and John Calvin might not even exist. Reformed gets to be a distinct religion due to being a larger theological break from mainline Protestantism than your average sect, and has plenty of sects of its own.
3.) No. England doesn't need to be a super-special snowflake AND weaken the Protestant side of the balance of power by having a snowflake religion that adds little to nothing of value to the game.

 

[PhroX]

To be fair, "Protestant" and "Reformed" are pretty standard labels for Lutheranism and Calvinism in history books, not just something PDox use.

 

[Nyrael]

Protestant works as a good cover-term for state-dominated, episcopal Protestantism. Making an independent Anglican faith would screw with diplomacy between England and mainland Protestants, and would also be rather railroady, unless you gave it a painfully generic name and created an event chain for any nation to pick Catholicism-minus-the-pope versus a more explicitly Lutheran-style faith. I don't see much value in this though.

Anglicans and Lutherans did not really see eye to eye inside Britain and there were many conflicts between Anglicans and the "Church of England isn't Protestant enough!" sides (and theology wise Anglicans are closer to Catholics than to Protestants). So really, I don't see lumping the two together as really so good.

Granted, it would affect the bonuses, but it is not impossible for PI to make an exception to the rule so that Protestant countries get along well no matter which denomination they are... although I think it would be better if religion did not directly impact relations, but rather Tolerance did (as historically religion of the state did not natter that much, but tolerance of the ruler did: Poland and, for duration of Edict of Nantes, France are good examples of tolerant while some Calvinist and Lutheran Princes inside HRE hated one another so much that they preferred dealing with Catholics than one another)

 

[MiniaAr]

Anglicanism should not be separated from Protestantism in my opinion. Protestantism is not synonym with Lutheranism but with countries establishing national Churches under the monarch's rule and clearly breaking with the Pope: Church of England, Church of Sweden,...

For example, if Gallicanism in France would have clearly broken with the Pope, than France should be portrayed as a Protestant country. This is not the same as the Huguenots winning the Wars of Religion, in which case France should be in game Reformed.

 

[Incompetent]

For example, if Gallicanism in France would have clearly broken with the Pope, than France should be portrayed as a Protestant country. This is not the same as the Huguenots winning the Wars of Religion, in which case France should be in game Reformed.

Gallicanism sounds like the Statute in Restraint of Appeals decision to me - a rejection of the Pope's authority over certain matters without any major theological departure, and without a total rejection of the Pope. The Pope wouldn't like it, but it doesn't really make you a Protestant, not even of the watered-down Anglican variety.

 

[ringhloth]

Because Protestant is much bigger than Lutheran, and I'm guessing that Reformed is much bigger than Calvinism. Both have countless amounts of splinter religions that calling them be either is fairly wrong, but having splinter religions isn't a good representation either.

 

[spinoza013]

Church of England is Reformed surely?

 

[hillcf]

England doesn't need to be a super-special snowflake AND weaken the Protestant side of the balance of power by having a snowflake religion that adds little to nothing of value to the game.

That may be a case within EU4, but it does mean that the game is not matching the realities of 16/17th centuries within the UK.

Anglicanism can be regarded as a 'soft' Protestantism, as a version of Catholicism with the Pope replaced by the Head of State. They controlled England, Wales and Ireland, at the government level, with the Irish people still Catholic. Scotland followed a 'hard' Protestantism line through John Knox and could be regarded as Calvinist.

You can see, to a degree, the differences between them during the English Civil War between the Parliamentarians and Royalists. Although the problems were based on differences between a Parliamentarian based government against a Royal based government it is also clear that the Parliamentarians were 'hard' Protestants and Royalists were 'soft' Protestants.

You also have to look at the Anglicanism anti-Catholic view during the 16th-18th centuries. Not just a difference of view but a religious war. Anglicanism was strongly afraid of a Catholic takeover, which shows up in the Guy Fawkes attempt to destroy the government, the removal of James II and VII, and the transfer of the Royal power to Dutch and German members of the Royal tree. The Act of Settlement 1701, which is still in force, excluded Roman Catholics, or those who marry Catholics, from succession to the English throne.