Why Persia is Shia in 1444

[GlidingHamutaro]

I believe this topic has been discussed before, but I can't find it through the search function. As far as history is concerned this situation is untrue, so I can only assume it's for game-play reasons, to make the Timurids disintegrate faster, perhaps. However, there is already a scripted event that increases unrest in Persian cores. So I can't understand why this historical fantasy still exists after so many iterations. Any ideas?

 

[grommile]

I would imagine that not only is it about making the Timurids more likely to disintegrate (note that even with this state of affairs, they still often keep hold of Persia well past 1501!), it's about making Persia itself stable once it breaks free.

 

[GlidingHamutaro]

If making Persia stable is the rationale, wouldn't giving Persia an event that gives missionary strength against heretics be more historically sound?

 

[Wizzington]

To encourage the historical outcome in the region. We do not always use the completely historical setup if doing so means the game will never develop in certain ways we want it to be able to.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Is to have the clash beetween the sunni giants against the shia one.
Ottomans and Persia

If you not made this region shia from start, probably the will never be shia and so the religion will be a minority in the area.
You can made it sunni with event to flip them to shia if persia rule these provinces, but is so railroaded that probably is like nothing change.

 

[Sousuke123]

Is to have the clash beetween the sunni giants against the shia one.
Ottomans and Persia

If you not made this region shia from start, probably the will never be shia and so the religion will be a minority in the area.
You can made it sunni with event to flip them to shia if persia rule these provinces, but is so railroaded that probably is like nothing change.

Persia already got event which allows them to flip to Shia as long as year is before 1630 giving them alongside missionary strength modifier to convert everything. Besides they take religious as 2nd so it's not like Shia would be minority if it showed up.

 

[GlidingHamutaro]

I'd think that a historical outcome is inevitable, since Persia once formed should rival the Ottomans due to their relative sizes. However, given present setup, it'd be almost impossible for a Sunni Persia to form without religious rebels. I'd think giving Persia a chance to decide its religious orientation upon forming would be more historically correct, something like giving missionary strength against heretics (and reduce tolerance for heretics) and piety if going Shia; reduce legitimacy if staying Sunni; or something along those choices...

On second thought, religious unity would be rather severe if one decides to go Shia assuming all the provinces were Sunni...

 

[Oryxslayer]

I believe this topic has been discussed before, but I can't find it through the search function. As far as history is concerned this situation is untrue, so I can only assume it's for game-play reasons, to make the Timurids disintegrate faster, perhaps. However, there is already a scripted event that increases unrest in Persian cores. So I can't understand why this historical fantasy still exists after so many iterations. Any ideas?

Its not a problem with Persia going Shia per say, it's a problem with Persia even appearing. Persia currently gets most of its unique events oriented towards conversion and the Shiite faith, which mean that even if there is a Sunni Persia, it will convert to Shia relatively fast. The two most notable of these events fire early in the game, with one choosing between flipping to Shia or a Stability (AI weight 100% on Shia), and the other offering a +2% missionary strength boost for the rest of the game, or a couple other benefits. Similarly as stated, Persia's size usually means that they rival the Ottomans and a historical rivalry emerges in the region.

The problem lies however with the 1444 startdate. Historically, Aq Qoiunlu conquered Qara through luck and tactical genius, then proceded to conquer Persia. After several rebellions, he lost Persia to the Safavids. This NEVER can happen in eu4. Even if Qara conquers Persia, their culture is Azerbaijani, which means a auto-acceptance of Persian. (not to mention shia state religion) The most frequent way that Persia emerges in eu4 is through Timurid rebels, specifically ones that spawn in the first 10 years. These rebels spawn even though Timur accepts Persian because the Shia intolerance penalties are too large to overcome. Making Persia Sunni guarantees that the rebels will never spawn and Timurs empire will never collapse.

 

[Gurluas]

The best bet is to make some provinces Sunni, and others Shia.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

That some core of Shia province should exist in the north and in the south, even if we change the other to Sunni, is true.

 

[grommile]

The problem lies however with the 1444 startdate. Historically, Aq Qoiunlu conquered Qara through luck and tactical genius, then proceded to conquer Persia. After several rebellions, he lost Persia to the Safavids. This NEVER can happen in eu4. Even if Qara conquers Persia, their culture is Azerbaijani, which means a auto-acceptance of Persian.

There is no automatic acceptance of Persian culture by Azerbaijani-culture tags, since Azerbaijani is in the Oghuz group with Turkish and Turkmen, while Persian is in the Iranian group with Khorasani, Afghan, and Baluchi. An Azerbaijani tag that conquers all the provinces required to form Persia will accept Persian for exactly the same reason that the Timurids do: sheer volume of base tax.

 

[Oryxslayer]

There is no automatic acceptance of Persian culture by Azerbaijani-culture tags, since Azerbaijani is in the Oghuz group with Turkish and Turkmen, while Persian is in the Iranian group with Khorasani, Afghan, and Baluchi. An Azerbaijani tag that conquers all the provinces required to form Persia will accept Persian for exactly the same reason that the Timurids do: sheer volume of base tax.

Azerbaijani is one of those Micro-cultures that has very few provinces - the richest being Tabriz. Persian, on the other hand, has many rich provinces that line the border with Qara, meaning that the 20% cap is reached in a single war. I mean Qara already accepts Iraqi from day one, just to show what would happen.

 

[riadach]

Maybe you could get a Shia spread event similar to protestant spread events with the establishment of the Safavi rebels?

 

[GlidingHamutaro]

There is nothing wrong with popping out event troops depending on the military and economic states of the Timurids (or just make the +10% unrest into +20%...). Once Persia is formed through such event troops, then the existing events to convert to Shiism and + missionary strength will produce the historical Persia without perverting the initial conditions in 1444.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

Maybe you could get a Shia spread event similar to protestant spread events with the establishment of the Safavi rebels?

That...really isn't a bad idea, actually. Post it on the suggestion forum?

 

[riadach]

That...really isn't a bad idea, actually. Post it on the suggestion forum?

You say that like you're surprised.

 

[Clownie]

Azerbaijani is one of those Micro-cultures that has very few provinces - the richest being Tabriz. Persian, on the other hand, has many rich provinces that line the border with Qara, meaning that the 20% cap is reached in a single war. I mean Qara already accepts Iraqi from day one, just to show what would happen.

This is not how acceptance works.

It's 20% of total base tax.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

You say that like you're surprised.

I'm surprised that nobody thought of it.

 

[grommile]

This is not how acceptance works.

It's 20% of total base tax.

Qara Qoyunlu has noticeably less than 100 base tax, so taking 25 Persian base tax (maximum viable amount in a single war) and coring it will give you considerably more than 20% of your base tax being of Persian culture.

 

[AndreasPhokas]

heck I just want Persia to spawn more. I rarely see a decent Persia.

The two things I want to see most is a rising Persia and if the muslims control the deccan a DHE that causes shivaji to start the Maratha revolts. The Maratha revolt Is one of the biggest revolutions and onesided revolutions in history.