Why no more schism mechanics?

[Sergeant Flutter]

I find it odd that there's no feature to create new schisms. The Orthodox/Catholic and Catholic/Protestant schisms both happened near CK2's timeframe. The Great Schism happened in the 1000s and the Protestant Schism happened in 1500s, but they ground work was already in place.

Basically,

Create New Schism:

(): Is Independent
(): Has at least half of the provinces of the main religion
(): Has held independence and provinces for 75 years

I think introducing this mechanic could result in much more unique worlds.

 

[Asiak]

No ruler ever decided to make a schism in history, and why would they? Would I support some sort of break from Rome (aside) cause I'm pissed at them function maybe.

The entire schism needs to be reworked. It just is so poorly represented, between the fact as you said that it starts irl around 1000 but you can mend it in game much earlier then that if you get the right provinces. Even that is kind of weird that isn't how it would work just because Orthodox controls every ancient see doesn't mean entire masses of Catholics would convert.

It needs to be taken from a single flavor event as part of the Byzantine Empire. And reworked into what could be multiple events involving the emperor the pope, rulers. It should be instigateable from both sides.

I would even go so far as to say rename Catholicism to Chalcedonian Christianity and have events cause it to become Catholicism / cause the split in the first place.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

No ruler ever decided to make a schism in history, and why would they? Would I support some sort of break from Rome (aside) cause I'm pissed at them function maybe.

The entire schism needs to be reworked. It just is so poorly represented, between the fact as you said that it starts irl around 1000 but you can mend it in game much earlier then that if you get the right provinces. Even that is kind of weird that isn't how it would work just because Orthodox controls every ancient see doesn't mean entire masses of Catholics would convert.

It needs to be taken from a single flavor event as part of the Byzantine Empire. And reworked into what could be multiple events involving the emperor the pope, rulers. It should be instigateable from both sides.

I would even go so far as to say rename Catholicism to Chalcedonian Christianity and have events cause it to become Catholicism / cause the split in the first place.

Well, pagans reforming religions was unheard of, as well as heresies overcoming the main religion.

But, some rulers did, actually. Henry the 8th of England, though he falls out of the timeframe, did split from Rome and formed the Church of England.

Though good ol' Henry falls out of the time frame, any schism mechanic should follow somewhat the Protestant reformation.

And before people come in and scream at me for bring EU4 mechanics over to CK2, note that I'm wishing for heresies to somehow branch off and form a schism, I'm not calling for a Medieval Protestant Uprising.

 

[Secret Master]

Because the schism between Rome and Eastern Christianity was already in play before it became "official" with the excommunications. The two halves of the faith were already far apart in organization and practice. The game wouldn't make any historical sense if Byzantine vassals were paying attention to an excommunication of their emperor from the Pope in Rome in the 800s. With a schism already in place at the earliest start, we avoid a lot of silliness.

But aside from that, the game does have mechanics that will approximate a world-changing event like the Reformation. Rethink for a moment what happens when moral authority gets low, and think about how heresies are structured differently than Roman Catholicism. And then go read about how Protestants felt about these medieval heresies.

You'll see that if a heresy takes hold in Europe with enough backing from secular authority, you are more or less in the same situation (sans colonial empires and some technology) as rulers in the 16th Century found themselves in. Hell, I've created a heretical England that used religious authorities to weed out Roman Catholics and went to war with Roman Catholic Irish realms. Sound familiar?

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

Because the schism between Rome and Eastern Christianity was already in play before it became "official" with the excommunications. The two halves of the faith were already far apart in organization and practice. The game wouldn't make any historical sense if Byzantine vassals were paying attention to an excommunication of their emperor from the Pope in Rome in the 800s. With a schism already in place at the earliest start, we avoid a lot of silliness.

But aside from that, the game does have mechanics that will approximate a world-changing event like the Reformation. Rethink for a moment what happens when moral authority gets low, and think about how heresies are structured differently than Roman Catholicism. And then go read about how Protestants felt about these medieval heresies.

You'll see that if a heresy takes hold in Europe with enough backing from secular authority, you are more or less in the same situation (sans colonial empires and some technology) as rulers in the 16th Century found themselves in. Hell, I've created a heretical England that used religious authorities to weed out Roman Catholics and went to war with Roman Catholic Irish realms. Sound familiar?

True, but I find it kind of silly that two religions that have coexisted for 400 years would still consider one another Heretical and would Holy War one another, there should be a point, where the Heresy becomes a different entity.

After the peace of Westphalia, Catholics and Protestants had a schism-like divide. Protestantism became it's own independent entity that was not constantly in conflict, for the most part, with Catholicism.

And yes, when MA is low heresies pop up everywhere! And I get your point, but I think a mechanic similar to mine should be implemented, or the entire Heresy system reworked.

Once you get large enough, the heresy, in essence, becomes de facto, another schism. Often you stabilize your realm and it's all good. But that "Heretic" opinion is very awful. It is much worse than "Differences in religion" don't you think?

After 400 years of being well established religion with your own practices, everything should settle down, which is what I propose should happen via schism.

Does that make sense? I have a tendency to loop back on myself.

 

[Asiak]

Well, pagans reforming religions was unheard of, as well as heresies overcoming the main religion.

But, some rulers did, actually. Henry the 8th of England, though he falls out of the timeframe, did split from Rome and formed the Church of England.

Though good ol' Henry falls out of the time frame, any schism mechanic should follow somewhat the Protestant reformation.

And before people come in and scream at me for bring EU4 mechanics over to CK2, note that I'm wishing for heresies to somehow branch off and form a schism, I'm not calling for a Medieval Protestant Uprising.

Right but even other then Henry there are pre-Henry examples of this.

But your missing my point. Yes he did break with the church but that was not his intent. His intent was merely to get a divorce, he didn't wake up one morning and decide to split with the church. It was something the he had to do to accomplish his goals and desires.

A blatant create schism would just be kind of unrealistic.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

Right but even other then Henry there are pre-Henry examples of this.

But your missing my point. Yes he did break with the church but that was not his intent. His intent was merely to get a divorce, he didn't wake up one morning and decide to split with the church. It was something the he had to do to accomplish his goals and desires.

A blatant create schism would just be kind of unrealistic.

A very fine point. However, no Pagan religions were reformed. The Moors didn't attack Brittany. The Treat Schism was never mended. Rome was never reformed. In CK2 these mechanics are in the game so that history can take another course, they're in the game so that a different and intriguing world can be created.

Your point does stand, a ruler won't wake up one morning and decide to branch off from the main church. But at the point the schism could be initiated, the ruler, and most likely his ancestors would've been heretics. They would be searching for ways to legitimize their religion.

 

[forgotmynamesorry]

Perhaps legitimizing a religion can be a heretical ruler's ambition, and something that can be fired off in the intrigue panel? It could have certain requirements (like requiring that moral authority be at least a certain % or higher than the parent religion the heresy comes from, and that a certain number of provinces or rulers follow such heresy), and it might be difficult, but I think it would be a good idea to implement in some way.

 

[Secret Master]

Once you get large enough, the heresy, in essence, becomes de facto, another schism. Often you stabilize your realm and it's all good. But that "Heretic" opinion is very awful. It is much worse than "Differences in religion" don't you think?

After 400 years of being well established religion with your own practices, everything should settle down, which is what I propose should happen via schism.

Does that make sense? I have a tendency to loop back on myself.

I do understand what you are getting at here. The "all or nothing" character of heresies in the game preclude a Westphalia kind of outcome. Although, I wouldn't know how to begin to create rules for something like that. You can bet your bottom dollar that if Roman Catholics had the political, economic, and military power, they would have wiped Lutheranism and Calvinism from the face of the Earth (and perhaps vice versa). So, I don't know how to set up rules covering a situation where major political powers get tired of fighting wars for religious reasons in a medieval setting.

 

[Lhutien]

Ck2+ has the schism, impressive I must say

 

[Red Earth]

Sounds like reforming a heresy into a recognized religion.
The difference between a religion and a heresy is that heresies are hated by the parent religion even more than infidels. So the key thing seems to be that Catholics and orthodox do consider the other to be christian while heretics aren't.
Perhaps having very piety could let you reforming a heresy, like the 8000 required of a custom empire in prestige. Don't know if that's reasonable for piety or not. Also there's the issue of holy sites. Where are they?

 

[StarSword]

Also there's the issue of holy sites. Where are they?

http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Religion

In-game heresies do have them, though they're typically the same as with the parent religion (Yazidism is a notable exception).