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Vormaerin

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While there were wars between groups that were Catholic and groups that were Orthodox, there were no wars between them ABOUT the orthodox/catholic issue. The simple fact is that at no point did either church consider the other heretical. There are some theological distinctions, but nothing that is earthshattering or unresolvable. The Council of Florence managed it, though it was later repudiated by the Eastern Churches, largely on political grounds (it acknowledged the primacy of the Pope).

The two original schisms, that of Photius and of Michael Caerulaerius, were principally power struggles between the particular Patriarch and the Pope. Both were later patched up by subsequent Patriarchs, though Michael's less well than Photius'.

More importantly, the Popes never sought to overthrow the patriarchate nor did the patriarchs seek the destruction of the papacy. Protestantism, at least the Reformed variety, can't make that claim. Similarly, Orthodoxy was never a threat to the monarchs of the western kingdoms.

Of the examples given, the only one with a shred of validity is the TO-Muscovite fighting and that requires a belief that the TO cared one whit about the religious beliefs of their foes. Few scholars hold that theory. The latin sack of Constantinople got the responsible parties excommunicated by the outraged Pope, at least temporarily. The Pope and the Byzantines were allies against the Normans in Italy, at least until Caerlaerius sabotaged things. The Lombards were neither Catholic nor Orthodox and were opposed by both the Popes and the Patriarchs.


Addition: The Ethiopian Church is not, strictly speaking, Orthodox either. It, like the Armenian and Coptic Churches, does not accept the Council of Chalcedon. It has been considered fully heretical by the other Churches, rather than merely schismatic.

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Vormaerin
 
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unmerged(7275)

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Re: Re: LOL!!!

Originally posted by CoolElephant


This is all very true. The crusaders sacked constantanople many times. Once Bizantium fell, there was harly anyone left to fight. The only threatening orthodox nation was Russia. Russia had been fighting the Teutonic Knights for centuries. By the time Byzantium fell, Russia was strong, and no catholic nation was strong enough to lead a crusade against them. Poland could have tried, but was at this time just becoming civilized and allowing Jews to become good citizens. Hardly a place of intolerance for other religons.

Most of the great wars of religon were also civil wars. Few were considered great crusades into foreign lands. Lastly, the catholics and protestents had hardly any strength to defend themselves from one-another. Why would they want to have a new enemy?

"The crusaders sacked constantanople many times" - only one time

"Once Bizantium fell, there was harly anyone left to fight. The only threatening orthodox nation was Russia." - In XV century Russia was one of the less powerful nations fighting hardly for its independence and than for reunification of Russian nation.

"Russia had been fighting the Teutonic Knights for centuries." - Did they ever fight?

"By the time Byzantium fell, Russia was strong, and no catholic nation was strong enough to lead a crusade against them." - even in XVI century not only Poland itself fought Russia but even Polish aristocrats (sometimes without king's permission) raided on it. In the beginning of XVI century Polish prince Wladyslaw (later king) burnt down Moscow and Russian nobles offered him tsars crown but his father didn't allow him to change his religion (orthodox)

"Poland could have tried, but was at this time just becoming civilized" - I'm sorry, but I'don't understand... - in XV century???
 

unmerged(1609)

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Re: Re: Re: LOL!!!

Originally posted by rafi


In the beginning of XVI century Polish prince Wladyslaw (later king) burnt down Moscow and Russian nobles offered him tsars crown but his father didn't allow him to change his religion (orthodox)


That was in the begining of XVIIth cty and Moscow was captured by hetman Zó³kiewski, not W³adys³aw himself (and I haven't heard of Moscow being burnt down).
 

unmerged(4253)

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Re: Re: Re: LOL!!!

Originally posted by rafi
In XV century Russia was one of the less powerful nations fighting hardly for its independence and than for reunification of Russian nation.... SO? 1488? hello???

"Russia had been fighting the Teutonic Knights for centuries." - Did they ever fight? many times, at least one battle I know of... 1242 with Alexander Nevsky near Novgorod.

- even in XVI century not only Poland itself fought Russia but even Polish aristocrats (sometimes without king's permission) raided on it. In the beginning of XVI century Polish prince Wladyslaw (later king) burnt down Moscow and Russian nobles offered him tsars crown but his father didn't allow him to change his religion (orthodox)

You make my point for me. Poland was not a crusading kind of nation. They were more bent on political economics and politics.

"Poland could have tried, but was at this time just becoming civilized" - I'm sorry, but I'don't understand... - in XV century???

I mean civilized by a moral standard of civilization.

 

Vormaerin

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Hey, Coolelephant, if you want to have any credibility, you might try presenting facts instead of snide comments.

Muscovy had, by the end of the 15th century, managed to overcome its major rivals: Novgorod and Tver. Many of the other principalities such as Pskov and Ryazan were still independent. Most of the southern Rus were part of Lithuania (Kiev, Smolensk, etc). Considering that even the major states added to Muscovy were done in the last 20 to 25 years of the century, it is hardly reasonable to object to a statement that 15th century Russia was struggling for survival. It wasn't much better off in the 16th either, when the Poles and Swedes were romping around the countryside, occupying Moscow, and generally being pests. While Muscovy was the most powerful Orthodox nation around, it was hardly powerful in any objective sense.

As for the Teutonic Knights, they certainly fought some states that were of Russian origin but they didn't fight Muscovy. Nor were the Teutonic Knights particularly a threat to the Russians other than Great Novgorod. The Poles, Lithuanians, and the rest of the Balts were more than enough for the Teutons to deal with. Saying the Russians had been fighting the TO "for centuries" is perhaps true in a sense, but hardly a good characterization of the situation.

You also stated that "by the time Byzantium fell" no Catholic nation was strong enough to face Russia. This statement is simply ludicrous. In 1453, there was nothing even resembling a "Russian" state. Vassily II had made Moscow a major principality, but it wasn't for another 20 or 30 years of warfare before you could argue Muscowy as a major state. Secondly, since the Poles did sieze Moscow in the early 1600s, you can hardly say they weren't powerful enough to be a threat.

And your statement about Poland not being civilized is still incomprehensible. You say you meant 'morally', but that still doesn't make sense. Civilized compared to who? They were as "morally" civilized as any nation in Europe in the 15th century and far ahead of Russia with its Mongol inspired totalitarianism.

As far as I can tell, you are arguing a tautology: because Moscow won, it *had* to have won. THat simply isn't a supportable conclusion. Regarding the original topic (religious wars), its all irrelevant. None of the western church nations ever went to war with Russia or its antecedents on religious grounds. The closest is the Teutonic Order's war with Novgorod, but the Teutonic Order pretty clearly didn't care about the religion of its foes since it launched "crusades" against the demonstrably Catholic Poles and continued to attack Lithuania after it submitted to Catholicism.

Aloha
Vormaerin
 

unmerged(4253)

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Originally posted by Vormaerin
Hey, Coolelephant, if you want to have any credibility, you might try presenting facts instead of snide comments.

Ouch! wery good post though! It takes an idiot like me blabing off all of the time to get you lazy know-it-alls to take the time to answer the guys question! My purpose is served.

Originally posted by Vormaerin
mongol totalitarianism.

What kind of totalitarianism would mongol totalitarianism be? Mongols to my knowledge never believed in totalitarianism.


To quote Paul N. Goldstene:

"Herein is the real basis of the word “totalitarian,” which is literally a theory of personality development which holds that people must totally lose themselves in a life greater than they are if they are to find themselves as integrated human beings. It is by no means a description of a state, for which “authoritarian” is usually the correct terminology."


http://home.surewest.net/jdl/ptf/docs/shallow-goldstene.htm
 

Vormaerin

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Yes, I admit 'totalitarianism' was the wrong word there. Autocracy or authoritarianism would have been more correct. Even though most people probably use the words interchangably, one shouldn't encourage that sort of laziness. :)

Aloha
Vormaerin
 

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While there were wars between groups that were Catholic and groups that were Orthodox, there were no wars between them ABOUT the orthodox/catholic issue. The simple fact is that at no point did either church consider the other heretical. There are some theological distinctions, but nothing that is earthshattering or unresolvable. The Council of Florence managed it, though it was later repudiated by the Eastern Churches, largely on political grounds (it acknowledged the primacy of the Pope).

The two original schisms, that of Photius and of Michael Caerulaerius, were principally power struggles between the particular Patriarch and the Pope. Both were later patched up by subsequent Patriarchs, though Michael's less well than Photius'.

More importantly, the Popes never sought to overthrow the patriarchate nor did the patriarchs seek the destruction of the papacy. Protestantism, at least the Reformed variety, can't make that claim. Similarly, Orthodoxy was never a threat to the monarchs of the western kingdoms.

Of the examples given, the only one with a shred of validity is the TO-Muscovite fighting and that requires a belief that the TO cared one whit about the religious beliefs of their foes. Few scholars hold that theory. The latin sack of Constantinople got the responsible parties excommunicated by the outraged Pope, at least temporarily. The Pope and the Byzantines were allies against the Normans in Italy, at least until Caerlaerius sabotaged things. The Lombards were neither Catholic nor Orthodox and were opposed by both the Popes and the Patriarchs.


Addition: The Ethiopian Church is not, strictly speaking, Orthodox either. It, like the Armenian and Coptic Churches, does not accept the Council of Chalcedon. It has been considered fully heretical by the other Churches, rather than merely schismatic.

Aloha
Vormaerin
Formally the pope never called a crusade against the Orthodox but many Catholics have used it as a pretet to invade the Orthodox people.

i.e. Alexander Nevsky (Novgorod) vs Teutonic Order + 4th Crusade (the point of no return for many eastern christians)

The Catholic rulers persecuted Orthodox Christians (Franks & Latins from the 4th Crusade onwards, Poland Lithuania, Habsburgs). At many points in history the Orthodox peoples would prefer Islamic rule over Catholic rule because they regarded the Turks as the "safer choice" - imagine that!!

See article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Eastern_Orthodox_Christians#Crusades

How dramatic was this event? The Byzantines lost mainland Greece to the Crusaders, they where squeezed in Anatolia between the Traitor Frankish Crusaders & their Latin Merchant Allies of the West and the Turkic Nomads of the East (whom would come in even larger nomadic numbers fleeing from the mongols). The Byzantines never fully recovered & fought an uphill battle for survival. Turkic Beyliks would take advantage, siding with either side when it suited them in order to take more land, integrating Greek, Persian & Nomadic customs into an Islamic Turkic Culture through "Turkification." While the Frankish Crusaders may have acquired land they never truly acquired the loyalty of their new subjects. Unsurprisingly the Crusader states failed (how could they succeed when they back stabbed their strongest local potential allies the Byzantines). Their local Orthodox support was already diminishing as they had in the past slaughtered Orthodox people - it was foolish of them to believe purely distant Catholic support was the solution (if anything it hastened islamization).

The Crusaders have only themselves to blame for their failure - at times Orthodox people would side with Turks simply because they felt safer under them than Catholics (then when the Catholics where gone they would fight Turks but by then it was too late). Rather than uniting Christians the Crusaders divided them, making it easier for Muslims to conquer them.

I'm not excusing Turkic, Arab or any Muslim atrocities against the Christians (they where responsible for just as many) but the reason why Anatolia was lost is clear - even the Pope himself excommunicated the 4th Crusaders for their heresy.

Mazikert was the nail and the 4th Crusade the hammer that ended Byzantium - they unwittingly made the situation unsalvagable for Christianity in Anatolia & the Middle East.

Its strange - Westerner Europeans either admire the Crusaders or denounce them for their war against Islam but seem to forget how it impacted the local Orthodox people (I'll tell you now though, Eastern Europeans never forgot what really happened).
 

Mder1

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This could be the oldest necro so far.
 
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soda7777777

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Pls no Necromancy
 

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Dear 2002,

Please tell Hitchens to cut back on the scotch and fags and be very wary of this Donald Trump fellow: don't let him anywhere near your bulky, analogue TV screens, let alone the White House. We'll thank you later.

Sincerely,
2018.
 

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Dear 2002,

Please tell Hitchens to cut back on the scotch and fags and be very wary of this Donald Trump fellow: don't let him anywhere near your bulky, analogue TV screens, let alone the White House. We'll thank you later.

Sincerely,
2018.

The Iraq War is next year for them and you choose to warn them about that pompous irrelevance? Good grief, man.
 

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The Iraq War is next year for them and you choose to warn them about that pompous irrelevance? Good grief, man.
It's not like they took warnings about Iraq seriously anyway.
 

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2002 Graf do you hear me ? Stick with Disney they gonna buy Star Wars.
 

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