Why nerf hordes more
- Thread starter TheMeInTeam
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Why does being unreformed allow a war college but no new units? Hordes can have their lands plastered with barracks, training fields and other stuff, can tech up to 32, colonize .. but they can't produce (or even loot) 1k guns, put them into the hands of 1k soldiers and tell them to shoot at trees until they hit them?
I sympathise with the dev position and agree. I'll make a thread but I'm not the world'sbest suggester.
IMO, the issue isn't so much that the 'reform or die' idea exists, it's just that the point where nomads hit that wall should be somewhere in the late 1600's to early 1700's, rather than in the early 16th century. I figure the Nomad group should probably be competitive up until tech 15/19 units start appearing, after which they have to reform to stay viable.
funny, i listed historical facts about hordes (and the rest of asia), showed how it was not horde specific but westernization specific issues (the units), and got ignored and its because people arguing how "ahistoric" it is say that the data i relayed was 'bullshit' because they don't agree with it.
You behave like a LoL fan. I don't like people who behave that way. We won't get along. So before this goes much further, I will ask you to concisely explain what you mean without resorting to character attacks on someone you know literally nothing about other than their disagreement with you over a video game.
1. Explain what I said which was indeed "bullshit" and how.
2. Explain why it is any less valid than anything I have seen you say (nothing in fact, because as far as I know this is the first time you've spoken on it.)
3. Explain why my data which was historical and real, coming from my cultural anthropology class, is 'irrelevant' to the 'historic similarity' of 'how fun hordes are' and how they 'keep getting nerfed'.
I think that is ok, that horde have this kind of troops, but I think that one unit for all timeframe is too much, in my opinion is reasonable that the units of a nomard horde, receive some advancement from the rest of the world. So they should receive some little upgrade at some tech level, to be a little more competent, even if inferior to a more modern army. So they need to reform to expand and survive, if not they can resist a little more, and pillage the more little not-nomad neighbors.
The philosopy should be: More the time go on, more less they can expand and rule over great chunk of lands, but they however can be a threat, can resist more and can be a problem, more difficult to eradicate. Even if they are less a threat against not nomads neighbour.
The philosopy should be: More the time go on, more less they can expand and rule over great chunk of lands, but they however can be a threat, can resist more and can be a problem, more difficult to eradicate. Even if they are less a threat against not nomads neighbour.
Actually perfectionism is a bad thing. In this case, they are removing a mechanic, just and only for the sake of perfectionism, but are not compensating it.
I like this idea.
Two suggestions of my own
1) Restrict troop types from foreign cores to a certain percentage of the force limit. Lets say 20% so that only 1 in 5 units is composed of foreigners.
2) Soldiers from foreign cores have a chance of revolting and joining any Patriot Rebellions or turning on you in wars against their motherland.
I'm closing down mine, use the other one please
Ah, no, no limit needed. Large contingents of foreign troops were not unheard of, just replacing everything didn't ever happen. Or at least it was a special snowflake.
The cash barrier should be enough. If not, add some events for having 90-100% mercenaries - they might turn against you.
If by doing it, you mean citing a definition that doesn't fit the in-game implementation whatsoever, questioning what it means to be a horde in the first place, and ignoring my points, then you sure did something alright.
You showed that you had no intention of actually addressing the points, which continues. Hordes are the only group that gets no unit upgrades. That is not a question of westernization, it is a question of hordes and their units + requirements to reform. Westernization is a SEPARATE issue to that and your discussion on this lines is a red herring.
I don't need to name call you, but it's really not worth anybody's time taking your arguments seriously unless they're actually on topic with what they quote.
Bugs and loopholes? Since when? Since 1.8 apparently.
This was a widely available mechanic (to every nation) with very real limitations which I already broke down for you. Do you really expect us to believe that the ability to recruit from foreign cores has been an accident all along, despite that it has historical basis both before and during the era...all while the question of horde governments and some huge stability-investing alteration is required to adopt a more sedentary lifestyle in the first place, which has no historical basis?
The bad mechanic is not and was not foreign units, which has historic basis. The bad mechanic is this biased and unrealistic notion that somehow horde units never advanced and thus shouldn't advance in-game, on top of an extreme bias/ignorance against the nations defined as "Nomad" in the game in the first place, such that a tribal government with virtually no western contact can modernize in a way that a nation in Europe in 1444 with contact and military capability on par with its neighbors somehow can't do.
As Tater said in his pseudo-on topic post in the other thread, these aren't Genghis Khan mongols. They ruled over large cities with differing government structures with no clear break point in when a nation like Crimea, Timurids, Kazakh, or Aq Qoyunlu "reformed" in the first place.
As for how to improve it, alter the "reform" requirement to better reflect what happened in history, and either remove the legitimacy requirement or bring back sacking.
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am not too happy about the changes, because finally I wanted to dig into hordes. However I think the foreign-core-stuff was a work-around at best.
On content: yes unreformed hordes are and should be doom. In real life I would consider most hordes – at least Golden Horde and Crimea – as partially if not completely reformed in game terms. They had mostly sedentary cities, impressive architecture, hard to penetrate fortresses and yes cannons. Unreformed to me means, being mostly nomadic and yes living in the proverbial tents.
Nevertheless the change does not seem good. The question is how to get a better reforming step or how to give completely un-reformed hordes some goodies.
Some suggestions:
On content: yes unreformed hordes are and should be doom. In real life I would consider most hordes – at least Golden Horde and Crimea – as partially if not completely reformed in game terms. They had mostly sedentary cities, impressive architecture, hard to penetrate fortresses and yes cannons. Unreformed to me means, being mostly nomadic and yes living in the proverbial tents.
Nevertheless the change does not seem good. The question is how to get a better reforming step or how to give completely un-reformed hordes some goodies.
Some suggestions:
- When unreformed hordes make military experience or especially when they get a spanking, they get a temporal modifier, allowing them to recruit foreign troops (perhaps only as mercenaries, or with very low re-enforcement).
- There could be a piece-meal military reform-process. For a small MP-cost and having military contact with more advanced countries step-wise more units are set free for hordes – for a time one troop behind and at the same level. For example:
- Nomad mil-tech 9 gets troops from level 5
- Nomad mil-tech 12 gets troops from level 9
- Nomad mil-tech 15 gets troops from level 12
- Nomad mil-tech 18 gets troops from level 18
Yeah I think that the best change would be to differentiate between Crimea etc. 'settled hordes' and Kazakh, Oirat etc. 'nomadic hordes', and have the reformation process be more interesting and less random and make you go from nomadic to settled.
I'm all for restricting recruitment of foreign units - as it actually works in-game, it's insanely powerful and only usable by the player. However, I'm also all for giving the Hordes troops upgrades - in my own play I've modded them to just get Muslim units after a while.
Err... it wasn't an exploit. The mechanic had to have been intentionally and explicitly included, so it was working as designed.
And it made sense. Recruiting local military should look like the military of the *people* who live there. If anything, you should *only* be able to hire those units, and not your own national units - the local population doesn't completely switch over to nomadism in 23 months. If I was going to make a change, I'd use culture and foreign cores as the sole determinant of units available to hire, and national units only become available when it's *only* your own core on the province. (Enough time has passed that the populace has become fully integrated into your way of doing things).
It was an exploit in regards to hordes because hordes were not meant to get better units. It wasn't an exploit for anyone else, but it's a redundant mechanic for everyone else now that tech groups are balanced anyhow.