Why nerf hordes more

[oblio-]

Well, whether one agrees with it or not, I'm pretty sure they DO want Russia to approximate its historical role in, at least, some games. Given that the "edge of Europe" majors like Russia and Ottomans have gotten some nerfs along the way, giving those nations some easy punching bags/land grabs may be one way to keep some sort of "balance" among the great powers. And perhaps that's easier than tweaking the various interactions among Austrian/Ottomans/P-L/Russia.

Or maybe I'm reaching.

To be fair, they appear to be coming a long way toward making much of the RotW interesting, semi-realistic, and reasonably entertaining to play. Maybe Hordes will come eventually? Maybe it's just not worth it to them? Or maybe getting the rest of the game to work well means some region needs to be victimized ahistorically, and Central Asia gets to be it?

Well, to be honest we should wait for 1.8 before continuing this topic.
In EU4 base tax means everything (and when the base tax is similar, lucky nations > shock > everything else). The rest of the world has just gotten a massive base tax buff and as a result the game dynamics will be wildly different.

I expect for example that the Berbers will hold their own much better against the Iberians, India will probably push back the Red-Tide-of-Doom, pardon me, the Red-Timur-of-Doom, if a strong enough power rises there before the Timurids swing around, etc.

Same for hordes, even their lands have received a base tax buff.

So as far as 1.8 is concerned their relative strength has increased, at least for the first 100 years or so. And who knows, maybe they'll grow so much in that time that even the dumb, non-reforming AI won't be eaten whole by Russia.

I hate it that Paradox completely removed foreign core recruiting trying to kill the option of staying unreformed for players, but until they revert the change or do something better I'm going to test hordes + marches -> this should work somewhat as a replacement. Want to bet that if enough people post huge horde empires using marches, marches will be restricted to higher tech groups? (I really, really, hope they're not restricted already! :wacko

 

[Novacat]

Well, whether one agrees with it or not, I'm pretty sure they DO want Russia to approximate its historical role in, at least, some games. Given that the "edge of Europe" majors like Russia and Ottomans have gotten some nerfs along the way, giving those nations some easy punching bags/land grabs may be one way to keep some sort of "balance" among the great powers.

Russia has not been nerfed, if anything it is more powerful than ever, now that it can get much more basetax/tradegoods from invading ROTW. They have one of the best starting positions (and the best multiplayer starting position) in EU4 and while their NIs are nerfed compared to their glory days they still are better than what most countries get. There have already been multiple screenshots of AI Russia eating Manchuria, China, and India.

To be fair, they appear to be coming a long way toward making much of the RotW interesting, semi-realistic, and reasonably entertaining to play. Maybe Hordes will come eventually? Maybe it's just not worth it to them? Or maybe getting the rest of the game to work well means some region needs to be victimized ahistorically, and Central Asia gets to be it?

Except a lot of the nerfs are deliberately targeted towards player-driven hordes. From the removal of westernization from hordes in 1.3 to the removal of building units from foreign cores in 1.8, a disproportionate number of the nerfs were directly targeted towards strats that only humans used. It really does seem like Paradox is trying to tell us "No, do not play hordes".

 

[Captain Frye]

It really does seem like Paradox is trying to tell us "No, do not play hordes".

Ironically, even after all those nerfs, hordes are still the most fun nations. At least for me.

 

[Novacat]

Ironically, even after all those nerfs, hordes are still the most fun nations. At least for me.

Well, 1.8 will kill off hordes for good. Given, I switched to dominating the steppes with European powers several patches ago, its almost ironic that states like Sweden and Blobbomans can out-Horde the Steppe Hordes. 1.8 will make it even worse considering that European powers can abuse Steppe Horde CBs by having a Horde vassal.

Next game will be Steppe Prussia.

 

[Captain Frye]

Well, 1.8 will kill off hordes for good. Given, I switched to dominating the steppes with European powers several patches ago, its almost ironic that states like Sweden and Brandenburg can out-Horde the Steppe Hordes. 1.8 will make it even worse considering that European powers can abuse Steppe Horde CBs by having a Horde vassal.

I think this is going to be patched though.

Also, the *reform or die* isn't going to be such an issue late game, because PI promised that they equalized pip distribution even further, making muslim tech group more competitive.

 

[Novacat]

Also, the *reform or die* isn't going to be such an issue late game, because PI promised that they equalized pip distribution even further, making muslim tech group more competitive.

You do know that Hordes can no longer use foreign core troops, right?

 

[Outrider]

Also, the *reform or die* isn't going to be such an issue late game, because PI promised that they equalized pip distribution even further, making muslim tech group more competitive.

"Reform or die" is about the need to "reform government", changing from Horde tech/units into Muslim tech/units. Whether or not Muslim units have parity with Western ones isn't really relevant.

 

[Captain Frye]

You do know that Hordes can no longer use foreign core troops, right?

I know about that. But hordes will have enough time to gain strength while being a horde. Then reform and get muslim troops, which will be buffed according to PI.

 

[Novacat]

I know about that. But hordes will have enough time to gain strength while being a horde. Then reform and get muslim troops, which will be buffed according to PI.

Your not really playing a horde anymore in that case.

 

[Captain Frye]

Your not really playing a horde anymore in that case.

Well, having european armies and remaining a horde was kind of cheesy, you have to admit it. Doesn't mean hordes aren't overnerfed.

 

[Outrider]

I know about that. But hordes will have enough time to gain strength while being a horde. Then reform and get muslim troops, which will be buffed according to PI.

Which is missing the entire point of this thread.

The point of the thread is that its ahistorical and internally inconsistent (where subsaharan and american techs get troops without reforming) that hordes need to reform to get units.

Yes...we all know that we can get big and reform, that's always been the case and has always been irrelevant to the argument at hand.

Well, having european armies and remaining a horde was kind of cheesy, you have to admit it. Doesn't mean hordes aren't overnerfed.

The logical solution would be additional horde units then, right?

Foreign core troops were a makeshift response to a broken horde unit situation. Rather than replacing the makeshift solution with a good one, PI's response is just to tear off the band-aid and leave it broken.

 

[Captain Frye]

The point of the thread is that its ahistorical and internally inconsistent (where subsaharan and american techs get troops without reforming) that hordes need to reform to get units.

And I agree completely. The only thing is that 1.8 wont "kill hordes for good". Yes, autonomy cap and no recuiting from foreign cores will yet again nerf the hordes. But they are still kind of playable(for experienced players like us). I do wish Paradox will one day improve hordes. I would pay for such a DLC.

 

[Novacat]

Well, having european armies and remaining a horde was kind of cheesy, you have to admit it. Doesn't mean hordes aren't overnerfed.

Considering I have been arguing for months that hordes should have normal unit upgrades like every other tech group, thats a bad argument.

And I agree completely. The only thing is that 1.8 wont "kill hordes for good". Yes, autonomy cap and no recuiting from foreign cores will yet again nerf the hordes.

Sure, you could reform, then you would cease being a horde. Whats the point of being a horde if you just reform out of it after 50-100 years?

Would rather just play European states which have much better NIs in that case.

 

[Captain Frye]

Considering I have been arguing for months that hordes should have normal unit upgrades like every other tech group, thats a bad argument.



Sure, you could reform, then you would cease being a horde. Whats the point of being a horde if you just reform out of it after 50-100 years?

Would rather just play European states which have much better NIs in that case.

Do you play countries just because of their CBs and NIs? That's weird. If I was like you in this regard - I would abandon hordes long ago. What I like about hordes is the freedom of expansion. You can truly make a cool, big, badass empire in a short time span. And you will be able to do it in 1.8 (I hope...)

 

[RobRoy3]

Want to bet that if enough people post huge horde empires using marches, marches will be restricted to higher tech groups? (I really, really, hope they're not restricted already! :wacko

LOL. No bet.

But keep it to yourself if it's effective. People need to stop posting about their pet exploits unless they want to see them nerfed. The Ming-Mughal thing to keep Chinese factions, for example, pre-dated DDRJake, but he's the one who ensured the nerfbat came out. Okay, that particular exploit was pretty egregious. But it was FUN to do once or twice. I doubt anyone bothered a third time. And I'm certain no one's game was harmed while the exploit was around.

Russia has not been nerfed,...their NIs are nerfed compared to their glory days.

Yes, I'm referring to NI nerfs. Perhaps there was a need to nerf Russian and Ottoman NIs from a MP perspective, but I haven't seen consistently strong performances from AI Russia in SP (even less from AI Ottomans). I've seen occasional successes (for Russia, at least), but more failures to come close to historical accomplishments, particularly in the West. Maybe 1.8 will be different.

It really does seem like Paradox is trying to tell us "No, do not play hordes".

Frankly, they've been saying "we really, really want you to play European Majors". Again, maybe 1.8 will be different.

I would pay for such a DLC.

Which is the more cynical answer to the question raised in the thread.

 

[josh127]

Do you play countries just because of their CBs and NIs? That's weird. If I was like you in this regard - I would abandon hordes long ago. What I like about hordes is the freedom of expansion. You can truly make a cool, big, badass empire in a short time span. And you will be able to do it in 1.8 (I hope...)

I'm just curious why the way that Novacat likes to play is weird? I would think that a company that creates a game where you determine the destiny of the world would be happy that their customers find multiple ways to go about playing the game. And if one way is "exploity" without being a downright exploit that breaks the game, why would you kill it off without presenting an alternative? In this case, it's really simple, give better units as you go just like everyone else gets. "Reform or die" though just shows a railroading impact that says that one person's way to play is right and everyone else is wrong. It doesn't fit a title like this.

 

[oblio-]

I'm just curious why the way that Novacat likes to play is weird? I would think that a company that creates a game where you determine the destiny of the world would be happy that their customers find multiple ways to go about playing the game. And if one way is "exploity" without being a downright exploit that breaks the game, why would you kill it off without presenting an alternative? In this case, it's really simple, give better units as you go just like everyone else gets. "Reform or die" though just shows a railroading impact that says that one person's way to play is right and everyone else is wrong. It doesn't fit a title like this.

It doesn't also make sense from a business perspective, IMO.
Hordes are not a threat in general in multiplayer due to their awful tech rate.
Hordes are not a possible source of player confusion for newbies seeing huge empires: they are marked as "hard" and newbies will fail horribly with them within 50 years, and will go back to playing Portugal.
So there's no actual exploit to fix.

My guess is that the change was done to simplify the code and perhaps improve performance and hordes were just a side effect. I doubt any Paradoxian plays hordes after 1550-1600 or so...

 

[snakebite528]

Wow, the only way for this to be a more obvious attempt at trolling is to wear an 'I AM TROLLING' sign.

Please, the only respectable horde was the Golden Horde and they ceased to exist just after the turn of the 16th century. The Mongol Empire was also impressive but only managed to survive for a measly 162 years. Hordes should be nerfed because lets face it, they were pretty pathetic - not only were they backwards in technology, they were also uncultured and barbaric. Europa Universalis spans from 1444-1821 so there is almost 300 years of game-play where hordes should not, and do not exist. I find it extremely disheartening that people would even seem to suggest that the hordes should not be further nerfed. The new expansion focuses on the 30 Years War in 1618 so you can tell that Paradox are focusing on the proper time period (i.e. 16th century+) when uncultured and frankly disgusting hordes were wiped of the face of the earth by civilized Europeans. In my opinion hordes should not even be allowed to be playable for players, as realistically - unlike the European Kingdoms (which were ruled by one monarch) the hordes were a mess of barbarian scum with no sense of central power or organization, therefore it's unrealistic to command a whole horde as in reality their system of government was more confusing than the ending to Inception.

Exhibit A - Genghis kahn

Typical uncultured, barbaric, heinous, monotonous vile man responsible for many inexcusable and shameful acts committed throughout the early 13th century.

Exhibit B - Louis XIV

Typical classy, cultured European monarch, ruling with absolute authority and by the grace of God.

Now you see why paradox should nerf hordes?

 

[Nabrotleon]

I think is it a little bit racism, to tell that hordes only was be barbaric and uncultured.

 

[RobRoy3]

I think is it a little bit racism, to tell that hordes only was be barbaric and uncultured.

LOL. More than a little bit. He's clearly joking, trolling, or completely ignorant of history.

Props for the effort, though. I suspect he could even deliver it verbally, with a straight face.