Why nerf hordes more

[TheMeInTeam]

It's gotten to the point of foolishness. There's no historical basis for making them weaker than ever, and the reform requirement regardless of nation or location is incredibly biased in the first place.

Why does every patch nerf hordes? Timurids had a 2 patch stint of god-mode thanks to unity + tolerance changes and broken rivalry, and every other horde has consistently underperformed compared to history in every patch.

In response to this underperformance...they get nerfed twice over again in 1.8? Is anybody even capable of defending yet another nerf to hordes? It seems most people advocating this crap can't even articulate how say Crimea, Kazan, Timurids, and Oirat each differed from a European monarchy.

 

[selectah]

But they all lived in tents and were savage beasts?

I'm just waiting for paradox to ditch the succession mechanics because those above average khans are an unfair advantage.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But they all lived in tents and were savage beasts?

I'm just waiting for paradox to ditch the succession mechanics because those above average khans are an unfair advantage.

The sad thing is, some people actually believe that idiocy.

 

[Novacat]

[sarcasm] This is Europa Universalis, either you play as the Europeans or you accept that you are just food for the Europeans [/sarcasm]

At the very least, conquering the Steppes as a European power will be a whole lot easier. I have given up on Hordes at this point, Paradox seems hellbent on making them completely unplayable.

I bet you Ming is still completely fucked too.

No more foreign unit recruitment and no changes to horde units.

This, this I don't like.

When even DDRJake thinks your nerfs are nonsensical, should that not make you step back and think about what your doing?

 

[Tufto]

It's gotten to the point of foolishness. There's no historical basis for making them weaker than ever, and the reform requirement regardless of nation or location is incredibly biased in the first place.

Why does every patch nerf hordes? Timurids had a 2 patch stint of god-mode thanks to unity + tolerance changes and broken rivalry, and every other horde has consistently underperformed compared to history in every patch.

In response to this underperformance...they get nerfed twice over again in 1.8? Is anybody even capable of defending yet another nerf to hordes? It seems most people advocating this crap can't even articulate how say Crimea, Kazan, Timurids, and Oirat each differed from a European monarchy.

Forgive me, I must have missed it: how are hordes being nerfed again in 1.8? It would be absurd if they are, unless it's Timurid-specific.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

[sarcasm] This is Europa Universalis, either you play as the Europeans or you accept that you are just food for the Europeans [/sarcasm]

At the very least, conquering the Steppes as a European power will be a whole lot easier. I have given up on Hordes at this point, Paradox seems hellbent on making them completely unplayable.

The awkward thing is that these absolutely ridiculous nerfs and mechanics that sit squarely in super pretend fantasy land, spitting in the face of history...are coming alongside considerable NI buffs to ROTW and stuff like giving sub-Saharans a 60% tech group penalty instead of a 100% penalty. In other words, hordes are being systematically singled out patch to patch without explanation, reasoning, historical basis, or any discernible coherent balance plan, even as 1.7 and 1.8 substantially buff the potential of almost every other nation.

Are the devs playing some mod where hordes have 10 pips on their cavalry in 1444? Removing foreign core units and giving them autonomy while not easing their reform restrictions is TRASH.

Forgive me, I must have missed it: how are hordes being nerfed again in 1.8? It would be absurd if they are, unless it's Timurid-specific.

1. All hordes get a 25% autonomy floor, half the penalty that Ming gets. IE the baseline value of their provinces is nerfed to them but not to those who conquer them.

2. You can no longer train other tech group units from foreign cores. This affects gameplay elsewhere (earlygame western/eastern using Muslim cavalry, Muslim using western infantry/cavalry very late), but it is a particularly heavy nerf to hordes, which still don't get new units.

This is alongside multiple previous nerfs:

1. Requirement to reform to westernize
2. Requirement to reform to form a nation
3. Nerf to house of peace mechanic
4. Removal of the sacking event and its adding to legitimacy (pretty stupid, considering the later-added reform requirement)
5. ROTW base tax --> goods produced nerf of 1.5 really hit most of them hard other than the European hordes + Timmy.

All of this, and hordes outside of player hands (other than Timmy) virtually never outperformed their historical performance even 10 months ago. Given that, why have they been systematically nerfed ever patch? No other tech group has seen this kind of single-minded focused hatred/bias/ignorance.

 

[itsuart]

It would nice to hear PI's motivation on this. Surely, there should be some reasons?

 

[Castrolol]

Forgive me, I must have missed it: how are hordes being nerfed again in 1.8? It would be absurd if they are, unless it's Timurid-specific.

You're no longer allowed to create foreign units from an owned foreign core. Hordes still get no unit upgrades so they have to modernise or die.

 

[in heaven]

You're no longer allowed to create foreign units from an owned foreign core. Hordes still get no unit upgrades so they have to modernise or die.

And horde ai never modernises, so in 1.8 they are meat for western dog...

 

[Novacat]

TMIT, at the very least you can admit that I called it when I said that Paradox had a hate-on for Hordes. You always thought I was a negative nancy for thinking Hordes were being screwed by Paradox.

Forgive me, I must have missed it: how are hordes being nerfed again in 1.8? It would be absurd if they are, unless it's Timurid-specific.

Steppe Hordes no longer can create foreign units from foreign cores.
Steppe Hordes have a minimum cap of 25% Local Autonomy.

On top of this Timurid NIs got nerfed big time.

Timurids had a 2 patch stint of god-mode thanks to unity + tolerance changes and broken rivalry

What is even more insane is that Timurids blobbing was not even ahistorical, they did form the Mughal empire after all, the only problem is that they were blobbing in the wrong direction, towards the Steppes instead of towards India.

 

[oblio-]

And horde ai never modernises, so in 1.8 they are meat for western dog...

At least I hope they fixed the AI. I hate sending 5k of my guys to slaughter 120k of Timmie's finest.

 

[Novacat]

At least I hope they fixed the AI. I hate sending 5k of my guys to slaughter 120k of Timmie's finest.

Thats not an AI issue, thats a consequence of Hordes never getting pip upgrades on their units.

 

[gaius valerius]

T
What is even more insane is that Timurids blobbing was not even ahistorical, they did form the Mughal empire after all, the only problem is that they were blobbing in the wrong direction, towards the Steppes instead of towards India.

They didnt form the Mughal Empire. A loosely Timurid affiliated princeling (claiming descendance of Genghis and Timur) did from a very small territorial base. They didn't form it through blobbing. Nomad empires were notoriously weak due to succession mechanics, dividing territory amongst multiple offspring.

 

[oblio-]

Thats not an AI issue, thats a consequence of Hordes never getting pip upgrades on their units.

I hope that they fixed the AI [so that it now tries to reform government].

 

[TheMeInTeam]

TMIT, at the very least you can admit that I called it when I said that Paradox had a hate-on for Hordes.

I have no choice. Unless they're hiding some enormous mechanical buff to them to compensate yet more nerfs, this pattern of repeatedly targeting weakened/disadvantaged nations over and over, and only in one tech group, is hard to perceive as anything else.

On top of this Timurid NIs got nerfed big time.

This is the only one that made sense to me. Timurid ideas were amazing and strong for AI stability, so that was out of place. The rest of this is utter nonsense.

What is even more insane is that Timurids blobbing was not even ahistorical, they did form the Mughal empire after all, the only problem is that they were blobbing in the wrong direction, towards the Steppes instead of towards India.

Historically they got shattered hard by pressure from their west + instability, then resurrected from small territory and blobbed into more BT than most of the AI Timmy empires ever manage. The circumstances that led to that were somewhat unique of course, and you never see Aq Qoyunlu trash them in-game.

In that sense, making a distinct Timurid NI set that is much less focused on heathen tolerance, stability, and owning India makes sense.

They didnt form the Mughal Empire. A loosely Timurid affiliated princeling (claiming descendance of Genghis and Timur) did from a very small territorial base. They didn't form it through blobbing. Nomad empires were notoriously weak due to succession mechanics, dividing territory amongst multiple offspring.

Nations like Crimea, Kazan, Qing, and even Oirat outlasted a large number of European monarchies.

If you're referring to the pan-Asian version, then yes but every nation struggled to manage that, and it was only with improved technology that anybody ultimately managed. To this day, Russia does not directly own a lot of the steppe "horde land".

 

[Novacat]

They didnt form the Mughal Empire. A loosely Timurid affiliated princeling (claiming descendance of Genghis and Timur) did from a very small territorial base. They didn't form it through blobbing. Nomad empires were notoriously weak due to succession mechanics, dividing territory amongst multiple offspring.

Yes, and that small territorial base was what was left of the Timurid empire after most of it was conquered by the White Sheep and Uzbeks, source.

The Timurid empire initially grew with Timur, lived for awile, then collapsed catastrophically, then Babur took what was left of the Timurid empire and eventually founded the Mughal empire.

This is the only one that made sense to me. Timurid ideas were amazing and strong for AI stability, so that was out of place. The rest of this is utter nonsense.

The problem is that even the Mughal ideas are inferior to the old Timurid ideas.

 

[Comradebot]

In EUIII, hordes were one of the few groups outside of Europe that could hold there own, at least for a while.

Now in EUIV, they look to be maybe the only group that seems completely and utterly screwed in the face of Western powers.


I thought EUIII replicated it pretty well, and early on the hordes were very difficult to trifle with, and it was only later as the world changed around them did they start to collapse/settle down.

They're becoming pre-ToG CKII pagans: a land grab. Okay, not that far, you still have to like... get the very first infantry upgrade or so.

 

[hwoosh]

At the very least, conquering the Steppes as a European power will be a whole lot easier. I have given up on Hordes at this point, Paradox seems hellbent on making them completely unplayable.

I bet you Ming is still completely fucked too.

Even though PDS seems to be doing expansions focused around gameplay features rather than regions, I'm holding out hope that they have an East-Asian/steppes overhaul hiding behind the curtains ...

 

[selectah]

I loved the eu3 hordes too .. they had incredibly punishing mechanics but they were also incredibly fun to play - although one has to say that mechanics like the old coring system were better suited for horde flavor than the idiotic 'spend admin, wait a few years' one. Back then we had some REAL succession crisis.

 

[Tufto]

Damn. That's... bad, really. I was so hoping to play as the Golden Horde once AoW was released, but I doubt that for a player of my ability that would be at all possible :/.

They didnt form the Mughal Empire. A loosely Timurid affiliated princeling (claiming descendance of Genghis and Timur) did from a very small territorial base. They didn't form it through blobbing. Nomad empires were notoriously weak due to succession mechanics, dividing territory amongst multiple offspring.

He wasn't "loosely Timurid affiliated"- Babur was certifiably a Timurid. The Timurid empire collapsed just after the game's start, and the Uzbeks felled them in Central Asia pretty efficiently. Babur was the last Timurid ruler left, but being an extremely.

Nomad empires were weak due to their succession, yes, but during the early modern period there were still a number of successful nomadic states- the Crimean Khanate, Kazakh Khanate and the Dzungar Khanate stand out. This cannot be modelled with the hideous pip-nerf of the horde, which I fail to understand; surely tech groups already accurately portray the stunting of the horde? Their disadvantages should come from a bad techgroup malus and succession crises.