Why my breakthrough with tanks failed?
- Thread starter I had a bad name 99
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You can't attack or defend without org. So if you use all your org on the initial attack it doesn't matter how fast the unit theoretically is, its not continuing the offensive.
Supplies come into play heavily when attempting a penetration leading to an attempted encirclement rather than pushing the whole enemy line back. I have discovered the deeper my units penetrate the rougher the supply situation is. So you are playing a race against time to finish the encirclement before your tanks find that they have no fuel.
So considering this you want enough org to not only win the initial breakthrough but to win a few smaller battles more as your opponent tries to fling reserve forces in your way or attack your flank. If you run out of org you are stalled or forced back. If you're stalled you risk running out of supplies and getting stuck which likely means losing all your tanks.
I might be a little conservative with this, but after a lot of failed encirclements ect I tend to only plan operations that can reasonably be expected to be finished within 48 hours of the initial front line breakthrough. This i believe fits with the general supply grace period.
Added: turns out that the supply grace period is 72 hours default.
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When does this happen? When they penetrate into the yellow or red zone for some time?
Is this period when your unit can still fight in a low supply area (like encirclement)? Cos the tanks and soldiers still carry some bit of supplies with them.
I can't remember what supply level exactly that your tanks are no longer receiving fuel. Something like 65% or less, which is easy to get to with a attempted penetration. You'll start to see this if you overload a supply region on the front line but also with penetrations of the enemy front. I have discoverd that if I penetrate a channel 1 province wide by 2 deep into enemy lines I often start to get into no fuel territory right there.
The supply grace is the period before supply penalties begin to smack you hard. So with most doctrines you have 3 days to get your job done on such a maneuver. With mass mobilization you sacrifice breakthrough bonuses, soft attack bonuses or max planning bonuses to extend that grace period from 3 days to 5. I mention that because a lot of people think mass mobilization is a bad doctrine tree but bonuses like that really give you surprising advantages outside of "well i do more damage."
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If you don't want to do 40w tanks, here's an example of a 20w Tank with 1943 Equipment and full mobile warfare right right doctrine. You should be able to field this one in 1947:
Compared to your 20w Tank: (In Posting #4)
This example shows you how much difference newest (upgraded) equipment, template, doctrine and generals can make.
Compared to your 20w Tank: (In Posting #4)
- more Org (+10%, over 30)
- half supply use (field marshal is logistics wizard)
- almost +50% soft attack
- almost 4 times (+400%) the hard attack
- double breakthrough
- almost +50% armor
- almost double piercing
- higher hardness
- only 25% more production cost (6391 vs. 5071)
This example shows you how much difference newest (upgraded) equipment, template, doctrine and generals can make.
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I STILL gotta learn how you folks get a logistics wizard...
I've only just figured out some of the land basics! Lol.
If someone is interested how the supply use is done here. (Mouse over gives Details)
I got logistics wizard from using Kesselring as gerenal in spanish civil war and doing all with battle plans. After he got organizer I promoted him to field marshal and chose logistics wizard.
- Supply use -40% is from 4 times logistics support company. (Should only be 3 times in 1943, there was a bug with console research, sorry.)
- The -10% from gereral and field marshal are from their skill level. Both have skill 4 in logistics (last of the 4 general skills)
- The -15% from field marshal are logistics wizard
I got logistics wizard from using Kesselring as gerenal in spanish civil war and doing all with battle plans. After he got organizer I promoted him to field marshal and chose logistics wizard.
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You loose org while moving; loosing to much org decreases speed of your tanks.
Without enough supplies, you get more attrition. Getting to much attrition, decreases speed of your tanks.
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@Simon_9732495
Minor point:
In you example-template 1943, you shouldn't have mot; mech will do better.
You have 8 tanks and 2 mobile; I suggest to got to 7-3 or even 6-4 due to ORG.
Minor point:
In you example-template 1943, you shouldn't have mot; mech will do better.
You have 8 tanks and 2 mobile; I suggest to got to 7-3 or even 6-4 due to ORG.
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I Disagree.
Concerning Mechanized:
If I replace the two motorized with two 1942 mechanized I lose 10% speed (only the 1944 Mech can go the full 12kph) and the production costs increase 12%.
And what do I get for that?
A good chunk more Defense (+30%), but I dont need that. I don't defend with Tanks.
When adding Mech to a Medium Tank division I would only add the 1944 version . But they are really expensive (1rubber, 4 steel) ~5 times the cost of Motorized (in reality more, because you capture Motorized for the cost of 0)
I do that when I don't know what else to produce...
Concerning Organisation:
In my example it's full mobile warfare Germany. I get ~32 Org with two Motorized. That's enough for a offensive division.
Adding one more motorized and removing a Tank gives 5.5 more Org. But at loss of -7% Soft Attack, -11% hard attack and -11% Breakthrough.
A trade of... I go with only 30 Org, but more punch.
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Technically, mechanized can maintain speed better than motorized in rough terrains, but with all the tanks, it probably won't make a difference.
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I have a small complaint about that template. Keep in mind this is a minor quibble.
If you are trying to dislodge infantry, you probably want to stack more SA in more efficient ways. I prefer to dump some of the ARM battalions and instead use some SPART.
You can get some insane SA values that way, boosted all the more by effective use of Mobile Warfare.
Don't fret. I'm the worst person around here for farming general traits.
I know how to use them, but I never get any good ones until the war is basically over.
I object, but only because I don't always find the investment required to get MECH II or MECH III to be worth the time and cost. Even for me, IC is not infinite. And to get the required amount of MECH, you need many times the IC invested than you would if you just ran trucks. Which means more steel and more rubber than you might otherwise be needing.
For me, MECH becomes a "We're winning, so we can afford MECH" kind of equipment, not a "We need to win, so let's build MECH" kind of tech. Don't get me wrong: MECH is good. But at a certain point, you have to ask yourself what you really want to build. More tanks? More planes? MECH? And if the answer is "I can build whatever I want," then the question has become irrelevant.
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Fully agree,
there a ( too ) many games, where you make decisions and you don't have to worry about the outcome;
and this is one major point, why I like this game; to be forced to make decisions with future serious consequences.
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If my mech looked like that, I would build more of them.
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Motorized and armor suffer extra movement penalties when going through forest and mountains, while mechanized only suffer the usual penalties like infantry does.
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I feel that mech should be reserved for elite divisions like the Germans did. They field comparatively fewer panzer divisions than Soviets and US but they were relatively "elite", "better organised" and experienced. And I believed Guderian and his fellow panzergruppe commanders used these divisions to encircle many Soviet divisions in Russia. On the other hand, the US and Soviets field large number of cheap trucks for their massive operations.
Though I would argue that Germans did rely on a large number of cheap equipment too, like the Panzer 3 and Panzer 4. Probably the truly elite one would be the British which has a small but professional and fully motorised army...
Though I would argue that Germans did rely on a large number of cheap equipment too, like the Panzer 3 and Panzer 4. Probably the truly elite one would be the British which has a small but professional and fully motorised army...
That makes more sense. Mechanised has a half-tracked system that is more efficient than purely tracks or purely wheels.